9 | Coaching through Job Transition - an Interview with Jeanna (Part 2)
In this episode, we delve into Jeanna's journey through a major job transition. From initial frustrations and uncertainties to newfound confidence, Jeanna shared her experiences navigating the challenging job search process and overcoming emotional hurdles.
This exploration of Jeanna's six-month evolution was captured through Marco Polo clips, offering you an intimate glimpse into her mindset as she prepared to leave her previous job. As she faced challenges, Jeanna grappled with questions of worthiness and inherent value (a struggle familiar to many job seekers). We discuss the importance of reframing thoughts, externalizing feelings, and building awareness to navigate the complexities of job transitions successfully. Additionally, Jeanna shared how a crisis in her personal life added layers to her decision-making process, highlighting the interplay between the personal and the professional.
Through engaging conversations, practical advice, and candid reflections, this episode provides valuable insights for those navigating job transitions, showcasing the resilience and growth that can emerge. Join us as we continue Jeanna's story, offering inspiration and guidance for listeners navigating their career journeys.
Episode Contents:
[00:01:38] Reflections on Jeanna's evolution from insecure/afraid to dreaming bigger and confidently interviewing
[00:08:20] Marco Polo Clips over 6-months as she gets ready to look for a job
[00:12:55] Assumed Worthiness
[00:16:17] Energy changes as you work somewhere over time
[00:19:44] In the background: personal life in crisis
[00:24:23] Marco Polo Clip: Turning around the last few days of work
[00:37:02] Time management and prioritization
[00:40:38] When your heart is not in alignment
[00:48:20] Why it is common for women to default to overworking
[00:49:42] Starting to dream bigger
[00:57:20] Energetic upleveling
[01:01:38] Marco Polo pep talk in preparing for interviews
[01:09:37] Conclusion
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Transcript
(This transcript was generated with the help of AI - please excuse any typos or grammatical errors.)
Michelle: Welcome to episode nine: Coaching through job transition, part two of my interview with Jeanna.
This is the second half of an interview with my sister, who just transitioned to a new job that represented a major uplevel for her professionally. We recently went to brunch and were reflecting on the evolution she went through, from this insecure and frustrated manager who was afraid to dream of something new, to this empowered and confident woman who understood her worth and showed up excited to see if she was a match for a new role.
We've been reviewing video messages that she left me in Marco Polo throughout this experience. And in this episode, I wanted to share her story and offer some perspective for potential job seekers.
Let's dive in!
[00:01:38] Reflections on Jeanna's evolution from insecure and afraid to dreaming bigger and confidently interviewing
Michelle: This is the first clip where you're like, I think I'm ready to start looking for a new job. And so there's this, these little comments, like four or five clips, where you're like, "I'm ready to look for a new job. I'm so frustrated. I can't do this anymore."
And then you start saying like, "okay, I'm looking for a new job, but it's like so exhausting. I don't even know like what to apply to. How do I even know what to do next?" You know, that process. Yes. And then there's a clip where you're like, "I did the starfish before an interview and I, I'm not sure if it worked, but I did feel a little bit more empowered" or, you know, whatever. Energetic.
And then you're like, "I'm out of here, bitches. You don't deserve me. Like, you're beneath me."
that was really cool to watch that evolution of like, you trusting that you do have value. Right. And you're not a victim of your circumstance. Yeah. But it took like six months. Yes. At least.
Jeanna: Yes, because each stage of it is not easy, right? The job search is hard. And, you know, as you're putting yourself out there, it takes a lot of work. Sometimes the applications start an hour by themselves. And so just trying to find the right space, um, takes forever. And it takes out of you, so you have to have the energy to put in.
Um, so there's that space. And then, especially when you're not understaffed. standing or not seeing where you may fit in, right there. It inevitably plays on your self worth, right? Like, where's my value? Where I don't, what do I have to offer? You know? And so then there's that emotional side that kicks in that, um, is not helpful, just shuts you down and yet you can't help feeling it.
Right. So it's, I think during this process I really learned how to, you know, so. Suppress that more and, um, just draw into the, if I put out ten applications, I might hear back from one.
Michelle: Yeah, I think there's a piece of it that's like training your heart to stay open to possibility and hope, even though as women, we're socialized to believe that our value is in the value that we provide to other people, or is in the results that we can get is in the way that the people around us feel.
And that it's really hard for us to not be okay to be okay when the people around us aren't okay. Yeah. Or the system itself isn't okay. Like, I don't know how to persist in this without, if, because, Okay, so as a 7, you can make connections, and see the big picture, and synthesize ideas, because your brain is so fast.
And the people that you, sometimes you work for, can't even see those in the same way. And so, they can feel threatened by that, I think sometimes. That can create its own tension that adds to the layers of stress where you can feel intuitively into that I'm not pleasing this person. This isn't desired, but I can see that it's needed and I'm just trying to add value and why can't you see that?
Yes. It's just so hard.
Jeanna: I think, too, with the job search side of it, right, you have to get through that. And then, if you're not getting any Responses, then that is its own level as well. And so I would just say if you're going through job search right now, and you're feeling that switch the forum, you're doing that in.
For me, it was indeed. I spent six weeks, I swear I put in a dozen applications a week for six weeks. I was exhausted by the end of it. I don't think I heard back from anyone other than the thanks for applying, but somebody is more, you know, when I stood back from that, I needed a good three weeks, month to recover because that was too intense.
But I did switch to zip recruiter, same application, same resume. I didn't. And within a week I was getting responses and the job search really picked up. So for me, I would say, you know, consider what forum you're using. Um, and I found ZipRecruiter extremely successful.
Michelle: Isn't that interesting? Okay, you can be in a system, like doing the Indeed part of your journey. Right. And... The thoughts that you're having when you're persisting in that environment, it's like nobody sees me, I must not be as good at this as I think I am, there's not enough jobs out there. It's like the thoughts that are driving your actions and feelings are downward spiral kind of negative thinking.
Jeanna: Mm hmm.
Michelle: And of course you're not going to attract like high vibe awesome dream job situation in that. environment, but we don't know that it's the system. We make it mean something about us.
Jeanna: Yes. Yes.
Michelle: Like, the algorithm isn't matching people in the way as effectively, or there's not quality leads. We don't think those thoughts, though.
We think things about us. Yes. Or about the fact that this isn't going to work. Right. Like, it's just, it's so easy. That's just what brains do. They go to, like, seeing that negativity bias, or when you're coming at it from a place of insecurity, it's like, We think that the thing that gives us a sense of security and worth is the fact that we got the job.
Right. But you have to get the job to feel that. Yes. And so the more you can feel into, oh, there's, there's actually lots of jobs out there. And I know my value and I might not have communicated it effectively in the cover letter yet. Right. Or maybe there's another way to say this to speak their language on my resume or something like that.
Right. Those are, can you feel into like how different those
Jeanna: Yes. A million percent. And when, when you're in a site where you're getting no feedback, how intrinsically determines whether I'm worthy or whether I have anything to offer or whether I'm hireable at all. Right. Whereas in my case, and just switching the forum, um, you know, was the complete opposite.
I was getting calls. I was getting interviews. In fact, I went through seven interviews in five business days. You guys, it was intense, but awesome. It was awesome.
Michelle: was
Jeanna: exciting. Yeah, it was exciting because even though I was still living in the mess of the work I was doing, I was starting to believe that I did have something to offer and that other people wanted
Michelle: Yeah. And this could change.
Jeanna: And this could change. And then that, you know, inevitably increases your confidence and your self worth and how you even approach things. And so I really do feel like when I went into my interviews, I came into that. With strength, with my star power-poses, you know, um, excited and it wasn't about I, oh, I hope this goes well.
It was, I hope they see my joy in the process or, you know, what do I want them to see about me? And, and it just changed the focus. It made a world of difference for me.
[00:08:20] Marco Polo Clips over 6-months as Jeanna gets ready to look for a job
Michelle: Let's listen now to some of those video clips that highlight how Jeanna began to open up to something new. This group of clips starts in December of 2022 and it ends closer to June 2023 "
Jeanna: I'm thankful it's Friday. This week has been intense and my boss is starting to lose it a little bit, which is, it's interesting because she's always been under a lot of stress. She's always had a million different things coming at her. Like, I'm not quite sure what is different right now, but like she's kind of flipped a switch and it's really hard to be working under her.
She's still like super nice and like give grace or whatever, but also like, It's been two intense weeks. I think she appreciates the way I communicate with her, but she's annoyed by everyone else. And you know that theory, like, when everybody else around you is bothering you, the problem is probably with you?
Well, that's probably not the case in hers, but also I think she's not helping herself. You know, I'm in the epicenter of the explosion. So, I don't know. I think I'm ready. I think I'm ready to start looking for a new job. So, we'll see. Talking about hard things and I'm still smiling. Um, so yes.
So one of my favorite things to say is like, if everybody would leave me alone, I would be fine. I'm actually quite happy and content and like, my life's gravy. It's how I feel. If everybody else would just stop. I don't like managing people, especially when my people are acting like my children.
That's, uh, yeah. What I'm running up against in this department is that when I need, creatively, when I need to bounce off somebody, this website, implementation, or, um, different materials that I'm making, or how to plan the year, right?
Like, I'm collaborative. This is more than one practice line. Can you just pull this out of my butt? Well, I guess I can't. This is what I do. I do the research, and I come up with something. But in the big scheme of things, like, this really should be a collaborative event. So what will be interesting, I don't know, will be interesting is if and when I, you know, propose my yearly plan, um, to see the differences between the suggestions, which are like, you know, these people are not capable, um, into a full, well thought out, laid out plan.
Um, although, it really won't do anything. I don't think it will show my value or, like, do you know what I mean? It's not going to highlight what I do. That is the problem. The question will be, what other position, industry, where else does that fit? Do you know what I mean? Where else does that fit? That's what I'm trying to figure out.
And to be fair, I've not had the mental capacity to research or look for jobs since that one weekend I did. So, I don't know. I don't know. I sent over my resume to you and Lindsey. I do not expect you to look over that. You are way too busy. I feel like I'm in a pretty good space. I'm gonna do a little bit more tweaking and then I'm just gonna run with it.
Um, so I'm feeling in a good place. I really spent last night working on that and then I kind of like highlighted some jobs I might be interested in including training and development, which I hadn't been looking at before. And so I need to get back on and start applying again. But last night it was all I could do to do the paperwork because it felt hard! You know, It's like writing a paper.
You have to think. You know, I don't have to tell you. But, I'm feeling pretty good about where it's at. I know I need to tweak some words, but we're really close. Okay.
---
The rose colored glasses are off, like, I see for what she is, and so it just annoys me. I'm trying to reset the story that I tell myself instead of, the pressure is too intense and I shouldn't have to answer to all these people that are coming at me, and it's not even their job to tell me these things, and ask for clarification, because they want to know sooner than later. Just frustrating, it's like, just wait, I have 2 days. Like leave me alone! I have to tell you that.
Um, to reframe it as - I am leaving and everybody's trying to have whatever they need to be prepared and ready before I go. And that's my heart for them as well. So if that's my heart, I need to reframe the frustration and the indignation because that's why I really feel like every request is like, ugh, so annoying.
But what I really want to say is, it is not my job to shield you from this, to be your middle man any longer, I am out the door and I will no longer do it.
That's what I need to say. And my one liner is like, sort of ready. Will I have the guts to say it? I don't know. I definitely want to say it in gentleness, not bitterness, or resentment, or rudeness, but I definitely do want to say it.
[00:12:55] Assumed Worthiness
Michelle: One of the things that I inevitably come back to with all of my clients is that we know worthiness is inherent. It is our birthright. Right. Cognitively, in our brains, we know that this is true. Right. But you don't always feel that. And you're definitely not thinking thoughts that are coming from a place of I'm worthy, he's worthy, she's worthy, everybody's worthy.
Where we can give each other an A even though we're in the middle of what feels like a shit show. I'm gonna give you an A, I'm gonna give myself an A, I'm gonna trust we're doing the best we can and or we don't have enough information and or, you know, whatever. There's another way to look at this.
Jeanna: That's not really how the world functions.
Michelle: At all. And so, it can, it takes a lot of energy sometimes, and
it
Jeanna: does. It does. But I will say that the work that we've done together, the reframing my thought processes, the taking every thought captive, the venting, and then, you know, all of that though, has helped me get to a space where I can see that. Um, and I'll just keep coming back to this word health because I don't know any other word for it.
I feel healthy that I'm coming and showing up Just like you said, giving a hundred percent, ready to do the job, ready to work, excited to be with others and I show up and I'm thinking that of other people and I, I think if you're, if you're not in a space where you understand that or you've done the work to get there, I don't think it's something you can manifest on your own.
Yeah.
Michelle: yeah, it's invaluable to have someone with you. side by side looking at this and helping you think out loud. And I think just the value of getting your thoughts on paper, so like anyone in this situation where you can see the downward spiral talk happening and you know you should be able to pull yourself out but you can't really see your way out.
Sometimes it just starts by externalizing your thoughts in a journal and being able to put them on paper and see them clearly and then trace how these thoughts are creating certain feelings. And that the actions I'm taking are driven by the feelings that I want or don't want. Yes.
Jeanna: And for those of you who don't like to journal, which is me, she's not necessarily being literal, as in you're journaling out. Which, lots of, um, personality types do that, and when I'm in health, I like to journal. But, um, I can think of maybe two times in the course of two years that I've sat down and written things out, just because that's not how I function.
Michelle: Well, you do Marco polo.
Jeanna: I do Marco Polo.
Michelle: Some will do, like, voice memos to themselves as a way to just vent. Yes. And it's a safe place. You know it's not going to anyone else. Nobody has to listen to it, but getting it out of your body is so valuable. And then going back and listening, if you have the capacity, to like, what's the story I'm telling myself about this that I'm living out of right now?
Yes. Yes. Just that level of awareness and observation is key capacity building to start to activate your prefrontal cortex so you can think about the path forward in a different new way.
Jeanna: Yes.
Michelle: But that owning that, ooh, this feeling that I really don't like might be caused by something I'm thinking that I'm doing to myself.
Jeanna: Yes, that's a painful, painful realization.
Michelle: It's hard.
[00:16:17] Energy changes as you work somewhere over time
Michelle: Now that you've worked there for a couple
Jeanna: of years. Yeah, almost three years.
Michelle: Yeah, as you leave, you came in like so green and hungry and excited about the mission and what you could do. Like you knew like a thoroughbred at the starting line. Like let me at them. Yes. I got this. Let me go. I can, I can deliver for you.
Yes. I can show you my worth and then you will pay
Jeanna: me what I'm worth. Yes. That's how the game works. Yes, and it worked. I brought in crazy amounts and then was promoted. Within six months, a sizable raise, and that was rewarding. And then,
Michelle: as you got promoted and had to manage his team, now you're dealing with people who are unmotivated and seem lazy and have no integrity, but now, going on the outside, Having your wrist slapped, having all the resources being told no, no, no, no, no, over and over again, no creativity, you don't, you can't do that.
Can you see now how it sets people up to be in that frame of mind? Or to just be exhausted and tired and like, why bother? Why, why put in more work than I have to? I'm just going to do exactly
Jeanna: what I'm told. Um, having a hard time making that connection. Yeah. I would say, more accurately, that worked, for a season.
Because of the limitations with staffing and being able to really start producing at higher levels wasn't there. And so that worked well for a year, year and a half, until suddenly we were staffed. Then they wanted us to push the pedal to the metal, which we're for. But in the middle of that, they also are changing our goals and what we quantify as successful.
I mean, it was a big shift from the amount of drives to the units you're bringing in. They did not want small drives at all.
Michelle: It's like, uh, what's the pin the tail on the donkey? Like, you think you're having it, and then they twist you around, and we're going in this direction, and you're like, I think I'm going straight here.
Yes. I think this is the direction you want me to go. Yes. I'm just gonna keep taking steps in this way, and then they, like, spin you around again.
Jeanna: No, we're not going that direction. Yes. Yes, and you get on board and you, you know, start the engine to get going and as you're picking up speed, yes, they're exactly, they're like, oh, just kidding, we're going to have you go this way and get on board for this.
And so then you'd switch and you'd get on board and you'd, uh, attempt that and
Michelle: yeah. I think you did a really good job of like trying to see it for what it is, trying to influence what you could within the system. Yes. And then. At a time, you know, probably in January when these rants start happening, your inner knowing was like, I can't do this.
I'm not going to be able to make a change. There's no hope here. I got
Jeanna: to do something. Right. And what it was really recognizing is I refuse to continue doing this. I will not settle for this. I will not do this. Mm hmm. Yeah. And for me, I think this all happened when positions, you know, went away, people left the company.
And then instead of replacing them, that workload became on me. And while that was fun at first, that was a challenge, it was like, oh yeah, I'll pick that up, like, watch me, look what I can do, thinking that the pay will come, or, you know, those types of things. Well, that was fun with the first job, and even maybe a little with the second, but by the time the third one had happened, it was, I can't function at this level.
Fourth one happened, it was like I was exhausted. Yeah. That was the end of it for me because at the same time then was the backside of that, which is we're not actually gonna pay you what you're worth and we're gonna demote you. Yeah.
[00:19:44] In the background: personal life in crisis
Michelle: I mean, there's another side of this too that's happening in the background, contextualizing for you personally.
I don't know if you want to talk about this, we don't have to, but your family was in crisis in the middle of this. Oh my gosh. So the reality of being a single mom, providing for your kids in this environment at the same time, and having to show up, and being in crisis not knowing, like, not only, like, Where you guys were going to be and how you're going to take care of your family, and was everyone even going to be okay.
Yes. But also your kids starting to go through their own kind of mental health journeys. Oh my gosh. That were peaking at that time, which is of course normal in a crisis situation.
I can see how that would have made you settle and like, at least I have this secure thing. I can't afford not to have this job. And at the same time increase the rage and angst of like, this isn't okay with me anymore. I can't, you know, once things kind of settled down, it's like, no,
Jeanna: I don't need this chaos in my life.
Yes, absolutely. And just the role that we need work to provide in those moments, right? Literally being homeless and going from family to friends' houses, at the end of a school year, trying to make sure my kids are okay, you know, work was a god send at that time, because I did have the capacity to work from home or, you know, in that case I really just felt blessed to have it.
And then, you're right, um, you know, the mental health side of it kicked up and my kids were really not okay and then, and then work didn't really matter because it was in the background and I had already figured out how to juggle it and at this time it was the only space I really knew what I was doing and knew how to function and was, you know, high capacity.
Right. And in control, I would definitely say. Well, once that settled down, you're exactly right. Once it settled down and I realized I'm exhausted from work, I can't keep this up, everything started to be okay at home, Um, then it was, okay, what are we, what's next? What's next? And also like, right, you're dealing with crisis and your own emotional health and carrying everybody else's battles and so it really became blaringly obvious that this wasn't one that I wanted to keep carrying and that just because I'm superwoman, right, like you really start to see that in yourself, like I am woman, hear me roar because I rock work. You had
Michelle: to up level in that way. Yes. Capacity, like it wasn't an option. You could not
Jeanna: drop the ball. No, no. And there was nobody to pick it up.
Right, right. So even at work. Even when I left. I mean, they literally did not even post the job. So, you know, as I'm walking out the door trying to hand off something to nobody, there was nobody to hand anything off. And that was really hard for someone who cares. And as a seven with a two (Helper) lead, I mean, the last two weeks of my work, I killed myself, you know, that's the time where you're supposed to check out and, you know, really start enjoying and say your goodbyes, but I didn't feel like I could.
And not because of business, not because I cared about, you know, where the business is going to be. Um, but because I cared about who I worked with and I knew the effect that it would have on them. And so it was like, "how do I manage this, the best I can, to leave well?" Yeah. And, um, I would say that was really when you kicked in and you kind of reminded me like this is an awesome time to practice project management.
This is an awesome time to practice priority. And well, first I rolled my eyes like what a great opportunity. Okay, here we go. You know, but, um, which oftentimes I did find myself doing with your suggestions, but the next morning. The next morning, right? I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give this a try and literally, because you don't just say this lofty thing, right?
Like, hey, it's a good time to practice. No, you're like, you need to practice project management and what I want you to do is I want you to set up your square and I want you to put in what's important, what's urgent, what's important and urgent, and what's neither, and grab your sticky notes. I mean, like, literally, you walk me through each step of it and Let me tell you, in those last two weeks, I impressed more people that came into my office and were like, Whoa, what's happening here?
And I'm like, yeah, I'm project managing. I have seven days, and I'm trying to figure out what I can get done in those days. And everyone was so impressed, and I'm like, that's right. Look at me! I have a sister. Who knows everything? And you need her in your life.
Michelle: Jeanna is talking about the Eisenhower Matrix. I'll probably create a PDF download for you, so you guys know what we're talking about. Oh, I'm
Jeanna: sure you already have one made. Who are we kidding?
[00:24:23] Marco Polo Clip: Turning around the last few days of work
Michelle: What Jeanna is referencing here is a two by two prioritization matrix that you can use when you feel overwhelmed with the tasks in front of you. I created a PDF that you can download in the show notes at uplevelingwork.com/8.
Let's listen to the clips where i described this exercise and explain why it's important..
Jeanna: My thought process behind everything is that I want to do as much as I can to help everyone else and wrap everything up in a nice neat bow. So, I'm, I'm hearing, I'm receiving, I'm hearing the fact that I need to be okay with B- work and like, I'm trying to come around to that. And also I like how it's like, um, you know, don't like burn yourself out and there's two weeks leaving or like put your armor up for you because I want to go into my new job like relaxed and refreshed.
And I can't even imagine a space right now where I walk into my new job carefree and breathing fresh air. Cause I'm just so like tightly knit for this one. So that was really helpful because I'm going to look at it that way.
And also just the million. Time reminder of, like, you don't have to do the work.
Like, what happens if I don't do the work? They will not approve it, so anything I'm doing right now is a waste of time. But in my brain, it's like, well at least I'll have it set up so if they ever do want to, they're there and ready. Which is stupid, I could care less about the company, but, but who I'm trying to help in this new position, and she's so passionate and so important and she's a friend in the collection manager position who's also on board and really could use these materials, you know what I mean?
Like, so it's for them, it's
Michelle: not necessarily, like, for the company.
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Michelle’s Marco Polo Video Clip: One thing I want to clarify is that we're not afraid of hard work, but we want it to be the kind of work where you put your head down at the end of the day, and you're like, yeah, I did the thing. I feel good about that. It is not exhausting.
There's work that you can do that doesn't feel exhausting because you're operating from a better headspace. So I'm not saying like, don't do a bunch of work in these last few days. I'm just saying you decide and consent to what you want to do. Do not operate these last two weeks on default or automatic because you're going to burn out.
Oh, and the whole point is I need you fresh for your next job. Like this job is stealing resources from your next job. I think that's where you landed at the end. It was like, Oh yeah, I want to think about that. You want to be fresh as a daisy, rested, relaxed, feeling really good about putting that behind you.
And the whole point of this two weeks of giving notice is not to, you know, wrap up every project you've been involved in or train every single person on your job. They had time to do all of that.
I went back and watched this one part so that I could reflect it back to you where you're like, I just want to do for other people and wrap it all up in a bow.
And this is a perfectionistic fantasy and or recipe for overworking that is probably happening in other relationships and will set you up in your next job to get burned out. "I just want to do every single thing that I can. I want to wrap it up in a bow. It's the people I care about. It's not the job." I totally get that.
But remember, this system does not allow you to wrap it up in a bow. You do not have what you need to wrap it up in a bow, one. And two, we're not going to wrap it up in a bow at the expense of yourself anymore. No, like I said, they didn't pay you for this expertise. They didn't give you the time and resources to set it up.
It's an incomplete project and you have to be comfortable with walking away with it being incomplete. You can do the best you can. I'm not saying give up on this. I'm just saying like you need to reconcile now. Coming to terms with the fact that this might be incomplete and you feeling like that could still be an A for yourself.
Like this is still success. You need to define success in that way so that you're not like striving for the unattainable or the thing that guarantees that you self sacrifice in order to get there. There's no, there's no reason to do this.
---
What I want you to do is take the next 10 days or however many days you have left and I want you to think about it like a project.
That's the skill I want you to project manage the last 8 days. And I want you to spend 30 minutes tomorrow, before you get lost in the whole thing, thinking through where you're at now and where you want to be on that last day.
And really feel into the projects and the status you're going to leave them in, the kind of documentation, like just get really clear on the end result that you want to create in your mind. The clean room, the whatever. Like, and start making a list in your journal of what you want that to look like, to feel like. You could have, it could be bullet points of projects. Like, I want you to get that out of your head. I want you to put it on paper so that you can more objectively look at it and be like, is this reasonable?
Could I make this happen? And then it also allows you to like, let it be a fantasy. And like, for fun, as a game, I wonder how close I can get to this? Instead of this unconscious driver of, I'm not doing enough. I'm, I'm falling behind. I'm not going to finish. You see what I'm saying? Like it just. So I want you to be intentional about where you want to go and then I want you to treat it like a project.
So if that's the goal, what are the three most important tasks that in actions that I need to take between now and then that are going to get me closer to that goal or guarantee its results? And for each of those projects, little projects, or areas, or whatever, I want you to think about two, three things.
And I want you to put each of those things on a post it. And then I want you to create a matrix. And I want you to take washi tape and divide it in quarters.
The Eisenhower matrix is the urgent and important. So you have urgent on one axis and important on the other. And so you have, like, the upper left is urgent and important.
And then you have just urgent, not important down beneath that. And then you have important but not urgent. And not urgent, not important. Like I want you to force yourself to prioritize and also part of that is like, you should get it like a sticker or a gold star or emoji or smiley face on the tasks that are directly like the most impactful, either in terms of donors or setting people up to do things more easily.
Maybe it's a process, but I want you to start to evaluate. Which of these actions are going to have the most impact for people? Cause that's another way. There might be things that are not urgent and important or, you know, whatever, then go through the, like how much effort, what's going to take, what's easy and what's hard, what's going to take a long time.
I want you to just like think through all of this ahead of time so that you can then every day, what you're tackling first is the urgent and important and impactful, you know, and then you knock those out sooner. Cause that's, what's going to make you feel good of leaving and give you the most probability of success.
And all this other stuff that comes in -cause it will every day, there'll be a new thing- and you can evaluate, "is this going to make it on the matrix? And how does this compare to everything else on my plate?" Because what's going to happen is you're going to be managed by the urgency and the tyranny and the squeaky wheel and the fear and the connection and the whatever.
And it's like, if you have this vision of where you want to go, each of those things, now you're evaluating against that. How does it measure up? And then you can leave all those other tasks as a to do list for the next person. You know what I mean?
But I'm worried that you are like, you're not harder than you need to, but like, you're not like consciously deciding on purpose that this is worthy of my time and attention because like I said, you don't owe them anything You don't even owe these people anything and you are going to be around for the people that you care about. You know what? I mean? Like they can call you if they want to or text you. (You can choose not to pick up the phone.) But if you want to make that offer you could and or you can meet them for coffee on the weekend and stay connected to them.
But I think it's a delusion to think that you're going to be able to wrap it up in a bow. And I just don't want you to waste your time and energy on that. I want you to, like, lean into your kids. You're going to be at a new job, and it's going to feel demanding and stressful. Even if you don't have a lot to do, right?
Because you're going to feel like, "I don't know what I'm doing, and they're going to find me out," and trying to figure out all the systems, and you're going to be on fire. Like, I don't want to set this up as, like, negative and, like, prime your brain to have a really negative experience. It's probably going to be amazing, so exciting. So different. I'll have so much more autonomy and it's gonna feel really good.
But I'm just saying like you need to allow for the fact that you're going to need your mental energy for yourself, for your family, for your new job. and you want to start as you mean to go with this new job, right? Like you want to set up habits that are gonna help you prioritize your time and make space for what's important to you in your life.
But the next step is to take those urgent important things and then block out time on your calendar and find where in this week, where next week, will I have time, how much time is it gonna take me to do that and where do I have time on my calendar to make that happen? So that every day when you come into work, you know you've got those big buckets scheduled between now and then, that you'll at least be able to make progress on that stuff.
And you don't have to decide every day what's most important, what's most important. You've got your matrix, and you've got like these big buckets of time blocked out on your calendar. So, if someone comes in and they need your attention, you can be like, "Okay, at 2 o'clock I'll be finished with this task, you can have my attention," or "I don't really have time for that right now, can you send me an email, or a memo, or whatever, and I'll try and get to it?"
Because the last thing you want to be doing is having meetings where it's just like one sided information. Your time is better spent writing an SOP (standard operating procedure) that they figure out and documenting what you're saying and then spending five minutes walking them through it. I don't know, like, you're a better trainer than I am, so you probably have some ideas about this, but I'm guessing you also have, like,
what I'm calling a perfectionistic fantasy isn't like a judgmental thing, it's like shorthand for the thing that we do when we've, like, Unconsciously have this ideal state that we're reaching for that we haven't made a decision about or really thought through.
"Do I even want that? Is that reasonable? What will it take to get there?" Like, I'm trying to get you to consciously think through those things. Because if you don't, what's going to happen is you're going to beat yourself up all the way there. You're going to feel like, "huh, I wasn't disciplined enough today."
And you won't give yourself any gold stars for the good stuff that you're doing. You know, like we want to celebrate your wins. We want to force prioritization. We want to get clear -every day there should be one, no more than three. Things that you need to do to win the day. You decide ahead of time at the beginning of the day. Okay, the focus this day, the most essential task I'm gonna do is this.
And at the end of the day, "did I do the thing? If not, why not? What do I need to do it?" Okay, set yourself up the next day to get it done. If it's that important or let it go if it's not, you know?
But that learning process of prioritization, discipline, saying no is really important and the coaching part that comes, that's where the coaching part comes in because it's gonna be like, Oh, I just really want to feel connected. I really want to set them up and I want to wrap this up in a bow. I want you to think critically about what exactly that means to you and why that's so important to you in this case, because some of that is conditioning for women, I suspect.
So my question for you now is the homework tonight or first thing in the morning is to think about the project of the last six days of work, seven days of work, whatever it is.
I want you to put the big buckets (Michelle has the hiccups). I'm running an event here. I'm whatever. So maybe it's really closer to four and a half full days of work. I really want you to think about that ahead of time.
And I want you to schedule your lunches or a walk. I want you to schedule your me time. And like your end of school year events, I need to leave early on this day. I have a doctor's appointment. Put that in your calendar first. That's probably all you do there.
And then look at what you have to work with. And that's how you decide what you have time on your matrix to do.
I love you. You're doing it. It sounds like you actually Turned your day around and it was a good day.
And what I don't want to do is like if you're doing stuff like cleaning up the workroom and all this stuff that's setting it up, like you should do whatever feels good on the other hand. Like you don't have to be that disciplined about it. I just have the sense that they need a lot more than you can do.
And so you're going to need to triage and decide ahead of time, what are the couple of things that are most important to me that would really set them up. But then you're going to have to start saying no to all the rest. But if it's like, I could let go and it is what it is. And there's documentation there and they just need to use it or, you know, they'll figure it out.
Then you could spend this whole time just cleaning, having conversations, taking people for coffee, just really enjoying yourself. There's going to be a fire drill every other day. It's going to say, "where's this? Where are the numbers? Can you send an email? This is an emergency!" And you just are like, "okay, we'll see what we can do."
Or you say like, "Oh yeah, I totally get it. We should have planned better for this. We talked about it in January and feel like I brought it up here there. It's okay. We learned, but it takes us a day and a half to create a campaign and get it out. This is something we need to plan a week in advance." You know, whatever those parameters are for next time boundary.
"Yeah, that does suck." Be with them, acknowledge how they're feeling and then be like, "okay, so next time we'll do this." Or "we really need an email would be more effective probably on Monday or for Friday" or whatever you said.
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Jeanna’s Marco Polo Video Clip: I am like preach! I'm like right with you this morning. I'm right with you this morning.
It really made a lot of sense to me how to think about it differently and um, how to view what's worth my time and what isn't and all of that. So, so good. You named it right on the nose. Um, it's all in my head. And it feels, I think what's driving me is it feels very manageable. Like I know that you say I can't put a bow on it, probably I'm designed to fail, blah, blah, blah.
But, um, but it feels like I can. Like, I feel like I can see them all and, and if I can just do them all, then I can, I will leave very, very peaceful, but I'm loving this. I'm loving this, loving this structure, post its. What is important and urgent? What is just important, but not urgent. What is urgent, but not important.
And what is not urgent or important. And I'm excited to do that this morning. I'm really excited to do that. And also the other piece that really took was it is more effective for this one Yes, that is what's been driving me nuts.
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You will love to hear that after getting all that out of my head was just that helped, just that in-and-of itself. And then today I chose to clean up my desk and go through my files and start packing my box. And that was my priority all morning. And I felt so empowering. Just saying.
[00:37:02] Time management and prioritization
Jeanna: And it helped. Because in that case, what was huge was I had so many post it notes on this board it wasn't even funny. And, um, yet under urgent and important and urgent and important, there was maybe three or four items in each. And in the others that weren't urgent or important, I probably had like 30 things.
Like, no joke. And that was huge because those 30 things would have taken up. 70 percent of my time, leaving me very little to do the others, but because I had put it on post it and put it on the wall, I could see, actually this doesn't need my time, and I'm okay leaving this on the table. And somebody else is going to have to pick that one up.
And then I could focus on what was urgent, and that was so satisfying. Because then I left knowing that what absolutely needed to be done was and I had had time to create job aids and even things where I probably would have coached somebody and taught them how to do instead I Created a job aid gave it to them and said let me know if you have any questions Which then empowered them and whoever comes behind them to be able to do the job in the future.
Michelle: Yeah, exactly This is something I do with my clients a lot, which is a sort of map making if you will of like This is the reality that we're operating in. And in your case, it was like, constrain this to the next seven days, because realistically you have seven days. You were starting to do extra projects, and over functioning more, and I could see you, like, burning out, and I was like, no, we are not doing this.
I think that's what I said to you. Yes. I'll play the clip.
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Michelle’s Marco Polo Video Clip: Sis, we're not doing this. Okay. I think that's what you wanted me to say or what you were feeling me in your head. No, there's no reason for you to feel stressed right now. There's a hundred reasons. Don't get me wrong. But, uh, have I told you the difference between burnout from external sources versus internal sources?
There's burnout that happens because you're in a stressful situation. And usually that's because the expectations are higher than your capacity to do them right now. And you're running up against. "I'm out of time. And everybody needs me. And I'm being pulled in a hundred different directions."
And even if the only neutral thought you can grab onto is, "That's okay. I'm doing it. It's temporary." Like, just add those things to the end of it, and you'll probably turn down the temperature.
But the reason it feels really stressful is because you feel like it's your job to fix all the things or to get it right, or because you have some standard or expectation of yourself, of how you're gonna carry yourself, how you're gonna finish things, etc. That is probably unreasonable. Or it's a perfectionistic fantasy.
You describing those posters, sister, was beautiful, and you could see it was out of reach. No. Get a Canva template, change the words, call it good. Create seven of them. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's the mode of production that you're in this week.
Like, I'm, how could I do this in one tenth of the time? How could this be C+/B- work this week? Because, like I said, they have not said you have to be successful. And the last thing you're gonna do is intensify the stress when you have an opportunity to leave. No.
I think too, as a good Christian, we gotta leave things really well, and like, you're making it mean something about you. That's the internal stress and pressure and burnout. That's the shit that causes burnout. That's what's making you feel exhausted. Dread always comes from what you're thinking about the situation, not from the situation itself. And I know you can see this, which is like huge awareness. And you're like, ugh, I know I can see this, but how do I shift it?
So this is how, you either add a neutral thing at the end, it's okay, I'm doing it, but also you just stop judging yourself about it. You've already done a good job, you already got the A, sis. This is the last week of school after the finals. When it's like, you're cleaning up the classroom, that's it. Your job is to clean up your office.
To like, make sure people know where the textbook or manual is if it exists, but if it doesn't, they didn't pay you enough to get access to the knowledge in your head. They knew it, they had an opportunity to make it right multiple times, and they did it. So you've been giving them extra credit bonus stuff beyond the A for a long time, and now they're saying, "how do I do that?"
[00:40:38] When your heart is not in alignment
Michelle: This is something we do, though, is like, in the overfunctioning is driven because there's so many things on our plates, so many to dos, and everything feels urgent and important. And we are measuring ourselves as successful against, did I do all the
Jeanna: things? Yes. And I really had a desire to end well. I wanted to leave well, despite my circumstances. I, I had worked hard. I had lead with integrity, I had, you know, each project I had done, you know, had a nice neat little bow on it, and I wanted to lead that way as well.
Michelle: Yes, and you were, you were sensing that "I wasn't going to be able to do all the things," so you knew you were set up to fail. Yes. And you were feeling into that, and you were beating yourself up already.
Yes. Before it was even done, and you were setting yourself up to be miserable. and this happens a lot. Yes. Because it's like your brain sets this vague goal. Yes. "Tie it up in a bow. I want to leave on good terms." Yes.
You have to get your brain to concretely define what that means exactly to me. Yes. So that you can externalize it and see it and measure it and decide, is this reasonable in the next seven days or not?
Right. If not, what is reasonable that I would feel good about? Yes. And so much of the work that I do with women is in deciding what success looks like. Yes. It feels like for me right now, how I'm gonna
Jeanna: define it on my terms. Yes.
And what I love about that for me, as a seven, I kind of feel like the wild child so often.
Um, but what I feel is so helpful for me is, right, it doesn't make me do that as... Someone who I'm not or outside of who I am or how I work and function and I would say that if nothing else like Understanding who I am and how I work and what motivates me and what I do. Well, like really what I do. Well, um It was just eye opening because I can tell you that I am incredibly creative, that I am very strategic, that I can see the different pieces on the table and make the connections.
I can see the big picture, and while I can also get stuck in details more often than not, it's, it's my natural, um, tendency to kind of look up and say, "how does this fit in?" And, um, I know what I bring to the table when I show up, and I would say before we started doing this work that I would not have been able to say that.
Because, as a creative, um, take out of the Enneagram, right? Like, as a creative, I function not like the rest of the world, right? I'm not behind a desk in a 9 to 5, even though I've been very successful in that. It's not my natural. I've tended to work in coffee shops and in jobs that allow me to get up and move and even organization sides of it right like I always felt like less than Because I didn't function like everybody else and what everybody else wanted.
I didn't want I never wanted, you know, the Two story house with a white picket fence and the job like that never concerned me Like, I was more interested in what it was that I would be doing. And, am I making a difference and an impact, and how can I help? And, and yet, how can I be creative and have fun?
Whereas I felt like, that fun piece of it, like the world was telling me, like, you don't get to think that way.
And I can remember even when I, Like, just took an art class. It was just literally a drawing class at a community college. One class. And how much pushback and pressure that I got other people's opinions on whether that was the best use of my time.
Like, this seems so silly, but this is like the, the reality of what I was living in as a single mom with responsibilities, trying to figure out how to live and be on her own, and how that drawing class didn't fit into what everyone, everybody else's mold of me looked like. And yet how that drawing class then, you know really was a launching pad for my creative career for Just the impact that I had with myself with my family and really what God wanted for me and my career path moving forward and and how much of a Role that marketing communication has been a part of that But also just that creativity and being able to pursue that outlet.
How easily that played into my strategy or connections or like it really developed this different side of me that actually helped me to be more successful in the job world, in the corporate setting because I was allowed to express myself in that way. I have
Michelle: no doubt that one of the things that people really value about you is creative thinking that you bring to the table in terms of like, well, you're very more ambitious, I think you learned in this job than you thought you were. Yes. And that was kind of fun to see that awaken. Yes. And I think part of that was just feeling competent in a different way. Yes. And seeing that there was another level that you could be operating at, like just like. Sensing and feeling it, but not like wanting to grasp onto it and figure it out so badly and knowing it could be there. These are all stupid reasons why we're not
Jeanna: operating in that way. Yes, and I think this job for me, um, also it opened my eyes to, because there was autonomy within it. Um, and because I was successful within that autonomy. Um, but then, you know, my favorite thing to ask, you know, I would come in each morning, check in with my boss and "what could I take off your plate?"
And, you know, as she started to give me things that I killed, you know, that I really learned there's there's really nothing I can't do. And I never I don't see that out of arrogance. Um, but I do say that from trial and error, right? Like, there really is nothing you can't figure out how to do. And that's not me, you guys. Like, that is us as, as humans, as who we've been created to be, right? Our capacity to take things in and, and function. Um, there really isn't anything that we can't do. And... When it's outside of our comfort zone, we we usually know somebody or we have contacts or there's ways to figure it out. The people show themselves in the right moments that you need them and you just learn how to do it.
Um, and so there was a lot of opportunity for that within this role and in this job, I will always be grateful for that because it really did show me like "I am woman, hear me roar." especially when I went through this stuff with my kids and continue to somehow hold down a 40 hour job a week as a manager, managing a team of 11, um, in the midst of my own crisis and chaos, which really lasted, you know, eight months by the time you add in.
Buying a home as a single mom and the just sheer amount of paperwork that went into that, um, most stressful thing I've ever done. But, you know, and it's not just managing at work, right? Because you do have your kids and you do have like the paperwork of buying a house.
In my case, you know, I also had the, um, I also was managing my parents. Um, emotions as well. Yeah. And that's not to say anything negative about them. It's, it's what we all do in any, it's just the reality of crisis. It's the reality of crisis. You show up for people, you show up for people.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. and that, and there's an emotional load, especially in a family of sisters. Yes.
And women. Yes. Um, we're naturally, at least in our family, also trained to, to show up and be there for each other. Yes. That's how we define family. Yes.
And so, of course, you're shouldering all of that at the same time. And you were the closest to them, too, physically in proximity. Yes. And probably emotionally, you understood their day to day life.
So, when everyone was thrown into crisis, it was
like, you can't not. The eye of the storm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[00:48:20] Why it is common for women to default to overworking
Michelle: This dynamic is really common for women. Because Jeanna workplace was particularly dysfunctional and she was running on fumes, it's tempting to put your head down and work harder in this scenario because it'll all be done in just a few days, you know?
She was working more hours than she was comfortable with and was trying to accomplish something that was literally not possible in the time she had left. So, she felt gross each day, falling farther and farther behind some ideal state that she wanted to leave things in. And this was causing burnout and robbing her of her ability to enjoy the last week of work and to say goodbye to coworkers that she valued and to even get excited about what was coming next.
Once you can see the patterns that women tend to fall into. You start to feel like you have a choice. It isn't some default inevitability that you'll end up in the shitty place, you know? And that is what I really love helping women to do - find where they can feel more empowered, so that they can see where they have a choice and then show up with clarity on the value that they bring. When you can work in a way that's aligned with your natural strengths and preferences, the work doesn't sap your energy in this way, you know, like we're removing that optional layer of suffering that we contribute or pile on ourselves.
[00:49:42] Starting to dream bigger
Michelle: You were explaining, " I'm just, I think I'm just this collaborative person. I just want to co create," basically. And it was like, your little inner artist was trying to come out, like, "I want to be part of something. That I can't conceive of, I don't know about now. I think there's possibility and potentiality that if we could work together and collaborate and bounce ideas off of, we could come up with something and create something really lovely and great."
Yes. And I actually think that is what the future is demanding of us. Yes. That we're operating in this increased complexity that the things that worked before COVID or with the boomers or, you know, whatever, aren't working anymore. We have fewer resources, we're having to do more. We've got globalization, you've got AI, now.
Jeanna: Yes. You know. And I would say that, um, the good companies have figured that out. They're doing it already. And it's the ones that aren't that are being left behind. I think a lot of these small
Michelle: businesses, smaller businesses, and/or family-run businesses, where there may not be formal training or experience or where you're not pulling from people who are operating on another caliber, have access to different types of tools, different life experiences.
You're really operating on a handicap. It's hard. Yes, I would agree with that. But it's really hard also to like hire for diversity because it demands of you something different. It demands that you look at the edges of... Where you've come to the end of yourself. Yes. And that an ego always comes along for
Jeanna: those rides.
And I would venture to say, in a corporation where you don't actually have the capacity to help create change, right? Like workspace, that comes from CEO down from management down , but
Michelle: I think that we are no longer operating in an environment where there is certainty or you really are in control that control is more an illusion
Jeanna: now than ever.
Yes. You helped me to see in the middle of this was that, um, I have a choice. I don't have to keep working in it. Right? Like I was identifying that space and you were saying you're not a victim. Right. You know, and that, that was huge for me. I'm not a victim. You know, I had to say it to myself for weeks, but, but it opened up my mind to think "I get to choose whether I'm going to keep working in this because it's not going to change.
Right. And what served me so well the previous two years in the midst of crisis and whatever else, it was no longer serving me. It was actually holding me back." And I don't mean that in a way of, I've outgrown you or I'm bigger or better. Although I do think all those things were always growing...
Um, but it was a space of, um, "actually I get to choose and this is no longer serving me." Yes,
Michelle: I think that's a key thing. Like For anyone facing a system that feels oppressive, or is actually oppressive, or discriminatory, okay? Because we're not, I mean, we're two white women
Jeanna: in middle age, middle class. I would have gone with middle class, but okay, middle age, fine,
Michelle: rude.
I don't agree with that, no.
We don't even face the pressures and the reality that women of color are facing. As a coach, one of my jobs is to point out to you that, "given that the system is what it is, given that we exist in this environment, what do we want to do about it?" Right. That's how you take your power back in a system that you feel victimized by.
Yes. It's not that we're going to give our authority away and that this is the way things are. And so. Rub your hands. (Rub your hands is the gesture I'm making.) But even within this system, even within this reality, I am still an empowered person who has her own authority and makes decisions about how this is gonna work for me. Yes And the reality is we live in a time and age, regardless of sex, race, class, whatever, Where we have access to more resources, more information, you know, whatever.
Yes. We could have been born a hundred years ago to a very different reality, you know, kind of a thing. Yes. And so what am I, how am I going to make the most of my life? That orientation feels so different. Yes. And is like a key gift, I think, to coaching.
Yes, and like, pulling you back and re-reminding you and reflecting a mirror back to you of "What's possible for you? Where do
Jeanna: I want to go?" Yes, and we're two years ago that that mirror that you guys were holding up because both you and Lindsey were doing it Right where "you could go elsewhere" and it's like I love you for saying that but I don't see it for myself Yeah, you didn't believe it.
Michelle: No, you'd been beat down so much by the system and by these hourly, low-wage, Unappreciated customer service orienting jobs.
Yeah where you were treated like nothing. I mean, not explicitly. A number,
Jeanna: yeah.
Michelle: Yeah, a number or just a machine and a cog in a big organization. Like, it was really dehumanizing in a lot of ways.
And as a single mom who didn't have the support that she needed to raise her kids, it's hard to see other people. And believe that that's possible for you. You just didn't have expanders that were like in a similar situation, people in your life that could prove to your brain that this is possible for you. Right. Until you were a little
Jeanna: farther along in the journey. Right.
And I would venture to say, I am not a researcher. I'm not a, the idea of planning and executing a vacation, for example, like, That is not my strong suit. So I would say, like, personality wise, like, it's, that was also a hindrance in my way. Yeah, so,
Michelle: um, Lindsey is our sister. Who's a type 3. Yes. And, um, she's the baby of the family of the four girls, and I am a type 1. And so, on either end, and I'm the oldest, so on either end you have very like, Driven, strong,
Jeanna: ambitious, independent,
Michelle: right. Women who married early and had the support of a husband to raise a family and start a family and to work and to build assets and resources together. And so it's hard not to feel like you're falling behind. Yes.
Or believe that you're so different as your artist. Right. Seven hearts. Right. And genuinely happy for everyone, but also like, "when is it going to be my turn too?" you know, like that's all normal, human things that we go through that's shows up at work and what you believe is possible for you. Yes.
And as a seven who's like maybe less willing to tolerate painful situations. If it's not fun, not lighting you up, not exciting anymore. Yes. There are jobs that you were just like I can't do this. I'm not
Jeanna: willing to. I'm not willing. I'm not applying for that. No. Yeah. Yeah, and I think
Michelle: it's so beautiful now that you were able to attune to your Heart and inner knowing this like little GPS system inside of you that like didn't make sense to a lot of people Sometimes probably didn't make sense to you like "why can't I just get it together?
Yeah, that kind of a person?" And just like be able to trust that this is somehow taking me somewhere Yes, and that the journey of growth and discovery is a homecoming to who you are who you were born to be Right independent of all these messages and the ways that we are shaped a hundred percent our culture
[00:57:20] Energetic upleveling
Michelle: I just want to reflect, like, there are times in these videos where your countenance, like, you can feel energetically where your heart and your spirit is at. And there are times when you're like, let's go high five, like,
Jeanna: Peace out.
Michelle: yeah, but also like seven energy. I'm doing it. I'm feeling empowered. Like you speak faster. Your countenance is different. It's like, I think there's this beautiful thing that happens over the evolution of these videos of like you showing up for yourself and then like feeling down in the dumps. And then you've, I think this is just the humanness of the experience. No one gets to escape the uncertainty, the pain, et cetera.
And when you know that life is going to give you 50 50 of each and you build the trust that I can handle. Both sides. Yes, because some people struggle as much with the success and things are going and when's the other shoe gonna drop and you know that kind of thing. Yes. Um, as they do the other side. I think there's, there's this beautiful like just allowing and being able to dance with life and take things for what they are and show up in those hard times.
Borrowing the thoughts that I was using and practicing and feeling into in the lighter, happier times.
Jeanna: I think for me too, um, as a single mom, So much of what held me back was I can't do it. And not as in I'm not capable, but the time and resources that it would take to do that are not available to me, or readily available to me. And it's very hard for me to ask for help. It's, it takes everything. And if I ask for help and that's rejected, or You know, that's just not going to work for us.
Like, I just shut down in ways that shut me down, you know, longer and harder than they should. And so, I think that was something I personally had to really overcome. I think a lot of it is really the circumstances of what you're in. I mean, we're, we're in a space where my kids are 14 and 17 years old, right?
Like I would have never been able to do what I'm doing when they were five and seven. There's just no way. Um, and so part of it is timing, right? Um, part of it is the work that we're putting in and, and part of it is just where we're at now.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And feeling resourced and supported in that way. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. Like, a lot of women have a hard time asking for help. Like, we're expected to shoulder everything all the time. And that's times ten for single moms. Yes. Times a hundred when you're in crisis. Yes.
Because it doesn't feel safe. No. And you don't want to be a burden. And all these things that we're conditioned to believe.
Jeanna: Yeah, it's too much to ask.
Michelle: But it's also too much for you, and I think part of what's happening in, hopefully, as you're going forward, is you're able to recognize the places where you need more support, where it's not dumb to ask a question. When you ask a question from a place of worthiness versus insecurity, it's just different.
Jeanna: Right, or trusting that who you're asking is going to still believe that you're showing up 100 percent and fully capable of doing whatever it is you're doing, you just have a question.
Yeah,
Michelle: it's like you're human. You don't know yet. I haven't told you everything you need to know. Yeah, it's allowed. It's all allowed.
Jeanna: And I think the other piece that I want to pull out of this clip is that dread. That was huge for me. When you were talking about, I, dread is a feeling from what I'm thinking. It was life changing in the moment because it was realizing I was doing it to myself. And it was really helpful day one. But in day two, three, it, I was still feeling the dread.
And also trying to change my thinking and not able to come out of it. And so, um, I just think that knowing that even though I was feeling dread, that it was a thought process, even though I wasn't able to avoid the pain of it. Um, I was still able to see it for what it was. And so even though I couldn't change it, I would go through it knowing that it was going to shift. It was going to shift. Yeah. But at any moment it might change.
[01:01:38] Marco Polo pep talk in preparing for interviews
Michelle: in this next video clip, I'm giving Jeanna a pep-talk for her week of interviews. I was doing a sales training for coaches that had this obvious parallel to interviewing for a new job and i could not wait to share what i was learning to encourage her during this time.
--
There's no trick in terms of how to market or sell to someone. The trick is getting into a place where you believe you are in demand and this felt immediately applicable to you and getting a job. How you show up when you believe that you are in demand, that there are people waiting out the door to buy from you.
And that is so different energetically. And she was trying to say that that is the difference to everything. The way you show up when you believe like you are a brick and mortar store and And that even if this person doesn't buy from you, there are 18 more people in line and your job is to just show up and tell them who you are, what you do, how you can help them.
And if it's, if they pass on you, then there's 18 more, 20 more people in line that have a chance. And so when you show up as though, uh, you're lucky there's all these people behind me. Don't you know how great this is? Like if you're clear on the value that you offer to someone and rooted in, I have something to offer.
There are people out there who want it. Um, Who are a match for me right now, as I am right now, not even as I am, as I get better, it just is like such a subtle but powerful shift. And I was thinking, Oh, this is what you should do in an interview.
Instead of like, what question should I come up to look like I'm smart or I care about them or I've done my due diligence...
It's like, Oh, you could use this first state the problem, name their problem better than they can. I was like, Oh, that's so good. Because that immediately establishes trust and rapport. If you understand the problem they're facing and the pain pain is another way to think of the pain that they're in. Then that's really powerful. You start there...
Then, the solution that you can offer. So like what skills or your approach or like just a hint, not telling them everything, but just like hinting at the big picture solution, "Oh, you're having this problem because you're making this mistake or because you're not focused on the right thing or because you don't have this X, Y, and Z."
So then you just outline a few steps or how you would approach it. And the thing is you don't even have to have it figured out how you would approach it. You don't even have to know what that's going to look like. So like all you're doing is saying, "Oh, if I were going to solve this problem, this job, I would probably do X, Y and Z."
And then the result, meaning, okay, you start in the problem, which is where they're at right now. And then the result at the end of it is like, where they want to go from A to B. Right. And the result is you're not going to be able to guarantee these results, but what is the dream or vision that they're living into? Where do they want to go?
But it's so funny because I just made the connection between interviews and consult calls on, um, it's the same thing. You're selling who you are and what you can do for someone. And so your job is to ask questions that help you understand the problem and the result they want. You want to get really clear on their understanding of the problem and hopefully you've done a little research and talk to people or you know the space or you know, whatever, so that you can kind of have a couple ideas about what that could be.
And then you want to ask questions and get them to the result so that you're really clear on where they're headed, where they want to go so that you can then connect the dots. So if you're using your own experience of like, "Oh, if this is where they want to go and this is where they're at, we might need to do an assessment. I might need this kind of data. I might need these types of resources or this type of strategy." And the hard part is believing. I think when you're starting out, it's believing that you have a process that can solve their problem and this idea that I have to guarantee that result. And that's not what we're doing.
We're saying, "I know that if we take steps in this direction or in this way, we're going to get closer to that result," and you can't guarantee that they're going to devote enough resources or have the time or, you know, whatever to get there. But you can feel really confident and guaranteeing that you're gonna show up and do your best to figure that out each day "If you hire me, this is what you get. I am hungry. I am focused," and then you just Sell as if in the confidence that it's inevitable if you hire me that we're gonna get that result because I'm just that good Not because I know all the answers right away But I have such a belief in myself and my ability to figure it out and to work with people and to be really magnanimous Etc, etc.
So Oh, I just wanted to offer that to you as you're going through all these calls, this idea of you never know which interview is going to be the one that says yes. And the reason they say yes, isn't because you're not good enough. It's it could be because you didn't say it in the right way that communicated value.
And so in that case, you need to practice and do this over and over again. And that interview got you one step closer to communicating your value more. Or they're not in a place where they're ready to buy. So if it's like a, um, a consult call for coaching, they may need to wait until they have the budget to do it right.
Or they may not feel comfortable or safe for their, from their own trauma or background or, you know, whatever. Or they just misunderstand. They're not self aware enough. They're not ready for you. And that doesn't make you wrong or bad. It just means that they didn't understand the value, they're not ready, or they misunderstood all of those things.
It's like, you can be grateful for every single conversation you have. Not because it's like, Oh, from a desperation, Oh, it's another chance. I got to get this job. I got to land this. I need this so bad. It's like "I have a job that's paying the bills right now. I'm going to have all these conversations and in these conversations, I'm going to learn a lot about what people want. And if they can see that the value that I bring to the table is a match for them."
And when you believe that, then the thing you say, yes to and the people who say yes to you, you're already a match. And you can like bypass imposter syndrome. I'm just so excited about this for you. I hope you can feel it.
---
The thing we do is we create these like perfect visions of where we want to go. And then when it doesn't happen, you know, and then you work backwards. Okay. So that means in year one, I have to do this and year two, I have to do this.
Then in year one, you're like not on track. And so what you make that mean is I'm a bad person. I'm never going to get my goals. And then you give up on your goal by, you know, month three. And that's not the point of a plan. The point of a plan is to like set your compass, chart your course, get super clear on where you want to go so that you can start to call in those things.
To me, there's just a very subtle difference that is worth thinking about, which is, "Oh, whether I get my goal in three years or ten years does not matter. I still want that goal."
there's something about women and conditioning. That's like, we can't own our wanting and our desire. I think it's all related one big thing. And I just want to offer to you that you are in demand. Just the thought that you're in demand is going to change everything about how you show up, how you write a followup email, how you see yourself and the work is to spend time in the energy of "it's coming. It's inevitable. I already have it."
So how will you feel when you have this job that's going to light you up and pays you what you're worth? Like just really think about that and spend time like feeling that feeling that vibration in your body of feeling and the spaciousness and the freedom and the whatever.
And then write your followup email from "this is inevitable. I'm going to find my person and they're going to understand my value." You don't have to prove yourself. You're not hustling. You're just like "great convo! I'm really excited about this." You know, whatever, like everything will come more naturally with less energy and effort when you're operating from that, it's like a huge epiphany to me. I always think I have to write a cover letter in the right way or make sure my resume has the X, Y, and Z or can be scannable. And it's like, yes, that's, it's not that that's not true, but you don't even have to be a good copywriter. You don't have to know anything about marketing.
If there are in fact, a hundred people outside waiting for what you have, all you have to do is tell them what it is. Because if the first person doesn't get it, you're gonna be like, "Look, do you see all the people in line behind me? It's okay, I only have one job. You know, I'm only gonna take on one job. It's your choice. I just wanna make sure you understand. Don't you understand what you got here?"
I just think that's such a cool picture. So anyways, I love you, and I want you to spend a couple of minutes today feeling into what it's gonna feel like when you land that job. And the more specific you can get into how you're going to feel in that job, the types of things you're going to be doing, how you carry yourself, how you write emails, the tone, how you dress, you know, all that stuff.
The more you can lean into that, it's not fake it till you make it. It's like actually feeling that feeling even a little bit and expanding how often you can feel that. And you will produce from such a high value cycle that doesn't feel like work or effort or energy or burnout because you have to recover from it.
And now I'm like, wait, what if you did your job right now from that place of total self sufficiency, like, "do you understand what you've got here?" Not from like arrogance, but like, you show up and do the job because you're just so damn good at it, that people's drama like doesn't faze you.
[01:03:37] Conclusion
Michelle: ah, the energetic rollercoaster of interviewing...
This sentiment that "you're lucky to have me" can provoke fairs of arrogance or narcissism or taking up space that we feel like we have to caveat or explain. Women tend to do this more. They sometimes need permission to brag as part of the interviewing process and it just feels so awkward or arrogant.
There are a bunch of reasons why women tend to do this and we're going to explore that in an upcoming episode.
Michelle: Thank you for being willing to like, revisit this painful part of your past. But also, I thought this was a good time since it's so fresh. You're one week on the new job and, and just like really celebrate and mark this moment. Yes. Of your personal growth journey. I'm really proud of you and the work that you've done and I can't wait to see what's next for you professionally and what this next level is going to unlock. It's exciting.
Jeanna: It is. It's exciting. Love you. Love you. Thank you.
Michelle: Thanks for joining us on this fun interview with my sister, as she reflected on her career transition. If you want to know more about the nine different styles of leadership or the strengths and weaknesses that go along with each of those styles, there's a ton of information on my website at michellekayanderson.com/enneagram101.
i'll catch you next week
[01:11:45] Outro + Bloopers
Jeanna: This is so dangerous.
What do you mean?
Because I legit could do this all day with you. I know. Like, I'm not tired at all.
Really? No.
Okay, good. This is kind of fun to process.
I mean, we are talking about me.
I know.
Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha
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