In this episode, Michelle interviews her sister Jeanna and they delve into the profound impact of coaching on Jeanna's life, particularly in addressing the emotion of dread and transforming it into a tool for empowerment. The conversation emphasizes the idea that dread is not merely an emotion but a thought process, providing a crucial clue to the underlying stories or tapes that drive such feelings. Through coaching, Jeanna learns to identify and shift these narratives, leading to a more empowered and positive mindset. The discussion expands to reflect on coaching dynamics, with Michelle highlighting the importance of consensual, adult-to-adult relationships in coaching, challenging traditional hierarchical models.

Key Ideas Discussed:

• Dread as a thought process rather than just an emotion.

• Coaching as a tool to shift thought patterns and narratives.

• The transformative power of mental flexibility and interpreting circumstances differently.

• The role of coaching in building capacity, self-worth, and self-esteem.

• Michelle's reflections on feminist coaching and questioning societal conditioning.

• Jeanna's appreciation for Michelle's coaching style, addressing problems in the moment.

• The shift from hierarchical to consensual, adult-to-adult relationships in coaching.

The conversation provides valuable insights into the nuanced and transformative nature of coaching, offering a glimpse into Jeanna's personal journey and the broader implications for redefining coaching relationships.

This episode is for you if:

• you manage a team or work on a dysfunctional team

• you want to learn how to manage your frustration at work

• you're feeling stuck at work

• you have a boss who is a bottleneck

• you experience meetings that seem to go on and on and on and don't go anywhere

• you're curious about what coaching feels like and want to know more

• you want to laugh about the absurdity of work and the felt experience of upleveling

Episode Contents:
[00:02:05] Introduction to Jeanna
[00:10:42] Reviewing Marco Polo video messages
[00:13:01] A friendly reminder of what a manager's job includes
[00:15:34] Look out for headaches
[00:16:40] Another MP video message - getting frustrated
[00:23:18] Free Resource: 10 Mistakes Managers Make
[00:23:57] Warning: Contempt
[00:24:35] Next Marco Polo message: SOPs
[00:34:01] Eureka! The monthly report template
[00:49:17] Dealing with dread
[00:50:33] Reflecting on the coaching process
[01:01:43] Jeanna appreciates the opportunity to coach with me
[01:02:48] Conclusion

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Monthly report template (google doc I share for free)

• Gottman’s Relationships behaviors that lead to failure video explanation

• Marco Polo app

Have a favorite podcast player? Here are direct episode links to:

Apple Podcast | Spotify

Transcript

(This transcript was generated with the help of AI - please excuse any typos or grammatical errors.)

Michelle: This is episode eight: Upleveling as a manager, an interview with Jeanna.

I took my sister to brunch and basically grilled her on her experience of being informally coached by me. Each day on her way to or from work, she would leave me a video message, asking a question or just processing her day. I thought it would be fun to weave them together and to reflect on her experience as a manager.

I've split this interview into two parts. First, we'll talk about coaching and her experience as a frustrated manager in her last job. And the second part will specifically cover her transition from a low wage dead-end role to her dream job and how she was able to raise her self-esteem enough to open to a bigger dream.

This episode is for you if you manage a team, or work on a dysfunctional team, if you want to learn how to manage your frustration at work, or if you're feeling stuck.

This episode is for you if you have a boss who is a bottleneck, if you experience meetings that seem to go on and on and on, and don't go anywhere. Or this episode is for you if you're curious about what coaching feels like and want to know more.

Let's get to it.

[00:02:05] Introduction to Jeanna

Michelle: Jeanna, thank you for coming.

Jeanna: I'm excited to be here.

Michelle: So Jeanna is in career transition. She just left - how would you describe the job that you just left?

Toxic,

Jeanna: non profit, do everything, wear every hat, make all decisions. But just kidding, not really.

Michelle: You don't really have authority to do anything...

Jeanna: no, I don't have authority. Hold all the balls, juggle... Will you also dance and do it on one foot? And watch your form. And by the way, do it while you're reading our minds.

Michelle: Yeah, totally. So, um, I thought this was a really unique opportunity to share the type of coaching that I do. Although this isn't really a representative sample of my coaching because we're sisters and, um,

Jeanna: I'm definitely spoiled rotten because I can vent on my way home from work and not only get the sister side of it, but then you're always, um, giving advice and giving those coaching moments and you're able to draw out my thinking because I'm constantly venting to you about it, so.

Michelle: Yes, so the format is Jeanna and I talk on Marco Polo. So the cool thing about Marco Polo is I can save the videos when we're talking about work stuff or when I give like really beautiful advice

Jeanna: Yes.

Michelle: that I remember. So I have copies of relevant, work related, Marco Polo [video]s where you're venting on your way to or from work.

And I thought it could be kind of fun, now that you've left this job, to reflect on your experience there, and kind of laugh at the realness of this, and think about, like, what you learned, and how you'll approach the next job differently.

Jeanna: Absolutely. Definitely bring some entertainment to the up leveling work because it doesn't really feel like work when you're talking through it, right? Because you're just talking through the problem or the issue at hand, but when you're consistently doing this and we have access to this type of thought process review, it's just a natural process to look back and to see these.

I mean, they still feel so real to me, right? I remember those moments. And the frustration, but to be able to just step out of it and look at it from a more high functioning, okay, bring your eyes up and really what's the problem? And more often than not for me, right, there was an emotional tie to it. So I felt disrespected or I felt like I needed something that my work and these coworkers were just unable to give me.

It wasn't realistic and so being able to consistently highlight that helped to then change my mind and my thought process around it.

Michelle: Yeah, that makes sense. One of the things that I teach a lot in my coaching clients is that it is normal for your amygdala to hijack your brain when it perceives a survival threat. So anytime you feel like you're in fight or flight, like, "I cannot do this anymore, I need to get the F out of here right now," you know that probably your amygdala is running the show, which is that more primitive part of your brain that's scanning for threats and really trying to keep you safe.

Enneagram 7 leader, like, "get me out of here, I don't want to feel this is uncomfortable... I'm going to bounce thing" is like a real impulse that I think you deal with. And depending on how you grew up, like that's another layer of conditioning and ways that you learn were acceptable or not acceptable.

And so I think what's really cool in listening back to these videos is that there's a lot of the things that we make it mean about us as leaders when we're in the moment, like, "I shouldn't be experiencing this. I should be above this. I should be past this," you know, all these ways that we pass judgment on ourself.

Jeanna: Why aren't they just doing what I say?

Michelle: Just listen to me already! That's

Jeanna: favorite one.

Michelle: Yeah. That, it's like, if you don't have someone reflecting back to you, the added level of judgment and stress that you're creating for yourself, you're just in the muck.

Jeanna: Yes.

Michelle: really hard to get perspective.

Jeanna: Yes. And my favorite thing that you do is, "It's totally normal for you to feel this way! Of course you're feeling this way." Like, that was always so helpful to me, to just take a deep breath. Yeah. And it gave a, you know, affirmation to my feelings are real, but they're not really helpful.

And I think that's what we keep coming back to is like, it's, it's real, but it's not helpful. It's not serving you. So.

Michelle: yeah, the last thing we want to do is like gaslight you out of like, you shouldn't feel that way because that's like a layer of judgment on top of the layer of judgment. And it's like, it's just not helpful. So I was working with another client just yesterday talking to her about the fact that the first thing you have to do is take care of yourself when you perceive those threats.

It's just a clue, it's just data that there's something here I'm not comfortable with or that reminds me of something else that really wasn't safe in my life. And until you're able to calm down and give your brain those messages of safety or just remove yourself from the threat, you don't have access to that rational, thinking, logical part of your brain that can think your way out of the problem.

Right.

Jeanna: Which is what you're going to see in our Marco Polo videos is me being stuck in the problem, unable to get myself out.

Michelle: When I'm with my clients, I do feel like sometimes I'm paid to tell them, "this is normal, what's the problem here? Like, why is this a problem?" And when I ask that, it can be really kind of like, well, wait, your ego can want to like defend and explain why it's a problem.

And that's actually really helpful to hear that because then you start to like bring into your consciousness the story you're telling yourself about this.

Jeanna: yes, which is where I'm living right now, which is so helpful, but as a sister, it's really annoying. I'm not gonna lie.

Michelle: don't think just as a sister, I think, my clients feel way

Jeanna: Yes, but, um, you know what I have learned. Um, it's proven over and over again in all our conversations and we're talking, and even when I don't agree with you, um, or the things that you point out, um, it does help for me to start looking at things differently or thinking about them differently, so there's times where I kind of have to turn you off and go and sit with it, but more often than not, it, you know, it helped my brain to get over whatever was, You know, that roadblock, um, to be able to start thinking about something differently.

Or, on the few times, which are fewer than I'd like to admit, Um, you know, it was able for a, a good indication for me to turn around and come back to you and say, "Well, actually, that's not really how I feel. I said that. But this is what I'm feeling." and um, and those moments it's really good because you're really good at pulling out questions and pulling out emotions behind.

But it helps to be like, okay, so we were, I was trying to deal with a, but if this is where you're thinking and this is then, you know, I'm kind of like tweak and change directions a little bit, which I mean, it's always helpful.

Michelle: Yeah, I think the brain is tricky that way. Like, more often than not, the problem a client presents with is not really the problem we end up dealing with. Yeah. And I think that's so interesting because the problem that you present with is like, "I can't deal with this right now!" but in being forced to articulate the why, gives you another layer of clarity on like, what really is going on for me.

Jeanna: Clarity and, um, self regulation and self coping and, you know, learning to think through your thought process. Like, you know, it's all so healthy. It's all so healthy. And that's what I cannot stress enough through our conversations is- as hilarious as they are. And I hope you guys find them hilarious. That it's really brought me to this new health level where I feel, um, you know, in a safe space, confident and, successful, and really able to handle whatever comes at me.

Michelle: It's huge. What a gift! this like really stressful, sometimes shitty job that you're in. Like really set you up in a completely different way, like up leveled your nervous system. Yes. And really forced you to trust yourself. Yes. Because it was almost like it was so chaotic and there was so much gaslighting going on and so much like, "is this me? Is this a system? Yeah. I can't tell what this is," that in the moment it's like so much discomfort that you just have to figure out how to

Jeanna: Yes. And not only trust myself, but listen to myself, right? Because there's so much that I was forced to communicate or articulate, um, and work through.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.

[00:10:42] Reviewing Marco Polo video messages

Michelle: Okay, we have this kind of unique opportunity because you've left this job. And you're my sister, so you actually share a lot more with me than I would normally get access to as a coach. We're about to have a little fun here. Yes. And I think, I think that's okay.

I think you have to laugh. And this is in the spirit of, like, evaluation. What was going on there, what can I learn from it, that kind of a thing.

Jeanna: And healing.

Michelle: healing. The intention of this is to be playful as much as anything.

Some of the clips we're about to watch are just you ranting and they just made me chuckle.

Jeanna: You're welcome.

Michelle: They made me chuckle and I think it'll be kind of fun to show them back to you now and be like, what is going on there, how do you feel about that?

—

Jeanna’s Marco Polo Video Clip: Good morning, sister. Okay, the meeting happened. It was over two hours long, but to be fair, we didn't even get into my things until an hour into it. And... When people come sit in my room and just talk, it annoys the crap out of me, because I don't have time. And if we're being honest, I'm not interested, right?

Like, I'd rather be working and doing the other things I have to. I know you're not asking my opinion, but I see the big picture. And for you to be freed up to do these things that you have to do, these are the priorities that you just listed, you gotta get this stuff out of the way. You gotta get this stuff out of the way.

And then that's gonna free you up to do the things that you have to do, and also the things like making job aids so that somebody else can do in the future, that then would allow you to walk away. So I said, give me a month to pull this together. Um, and so, you know, that's exciting. It's something new. I'm a little dreary because right now the schedulers won't let me walk away.

They're constantly needing things. And in that role, in the past, I never heard from them. They, they, they did their own thing, and they're responsible for their own thing, and that's where I'm trying to get them to go. I think we've definitely built up morale, which is good. But I have to introduce these end of day reports, which they both are, like, adamantly against doing.

Which doesn't matter. They're going to have to do them. Um, but, they have to go to two different places, three different places to find all the information to fill it in. And in the past, that has just been a nightmare. They've needed, like, need to hold their hand every step of the process and then ignore what I do and go do something else anyways.

It's really been quite frustrating. I just have to implement it. It will be fine. I just don't want to deal with a children response of I do that. We

have to say, I don't, I'm sorry, this is what, this is what your job is asking of you.

[00:13:01] A friendly reminder of what a manager's job includes

Michelle: I had a lot of tape of Jeanna ranting about her job and specific people, but this was just a little taste. In my response. I was trying to explain to her that this is normal. Part of the work of managing a large team is making space for people to vent. And that you want to be careful not to blame people and make them wrong. And just to make sure that you're asking questions about the systems and the processes and the environment that's getting this particular result. Here are some snippets of what I shared with her...

Michelle’s Marco Polo Video Clip: To the extent that you can tell yourself, "this is totally normal. This is par for the course. We're right on track here. This is just what people do. And you know, these are just how brains work. These are human brains at a different point in their developmental journey. And we're all doing the best we can."

Those thoughts are going to help you better. So, I would definitely put some constraints around your availability to listen to this stuff. And you can shut it down. You don't have to listen to everything. But like, If you plan for an hour or two of your day to be spent checking in with people or having these kinds of conversations, then you're not going to think it's a waste of your time because you're investing in their mental well being, and this is what they need right now, and it sucks because it doesn't feel productive, but it actually is part of the job of a manager.

It's like listening to people bitch and moan and trying to discern what's personality, what's systemic, what is worth fixing, what isn't worth fixing, and how to encourage someone where they're at. Because most people just need to be seen and heard, and even if that's the only thing you're doing, it's not a waste of time.

This is the stuff that builds trust. The more you can say, I, you know, like, give them a sense of, I see you, and or just hold people accountable. Just keep encouraging them to think for themselves, to think bigger, to like practice their own mental flexibility. Like, how else could we think about this? I can definitely see the need for people to just vent, and for me to be seen and heard.

I find it hard, because usually I'm in the middle of something when they come in, and I have to stop my brain power, and then I lose thought and productivity. I might, I might return to what I was doing, and I might not. And that is, uh, a source of frustration. So, I need, um, yes, I need to adjust my expectations.

And that was very helpful, right? Like, at a certain point, my job is to motivate and keep them happy. And being results driven, I'm actually really happy this week because I am able to get a lot of results and get a lot of stuff done and get them off the table. It's also where it sends me into workaholic mode because that feels so good to get things off my list and get things out the door.

I was I am super productive today in so many levels. Um, I am, pretty much the last week though, I leave with a headache. I'm just, my head hurts, I'm tired of looking at the screen, and my brain hurts from thinking.

[00:15:34] Look out for headaches

Michelle: I just want to pause and say that if you are experiencing physical signs of stress at work, headaches, back or neck pain, et cetera. Your body is sending you messages that you want to decode. Often we overlook or push through physical symptoms and that sends a message to your body that this isn't going to be heard. Which can increase the intensity on what you're feeling.

Often we overlook our push through physical symptoms that are sending a message from your body that it can get afraid isn't going to be heard. And this increases the intensity on what you're feeling.

When I'm coaching clients, it is easy for them to stay in an intellectual headspace. Sometimes we work on processing uncomfortable emotions, but tuning into your body is equally important. See, tuning into all three centers of intelligence is what is going to help you to find more balance because you'll be able to follow the clues that you can only find by being present. These were early signs to Jeanna that it was time to advocate for herself and to ask for what she needed

[00:16:40] Another MP video message - getting frustrated

Jeanna’s Marco Polo Video Clip: I'm just going to send an email out to all the consultants and say something along the lines of, Since we have new consultants, I just want to clarify what it looks like for new accounts and networking.

And just spell it out for everyone. Um, oh yeah, so the annoying thing is then, she calls me with this new account. So proud of herself. She put it on the calendar, then she asks me,

Jeanna: Oh, it's so real.

Marco Polo Video Clip: can do? Mmm. I tried to contact the other consultant. Mmm. And I had to sit there in the awkward and say, no, there's nothing I can do.

We just talked about this in the meeting yesterday. It's a whole big event. They've already done flyers with every business around is participating. It's the biggest thing we do.

Jeanna: You can see how much better I feel just getting it out. There's something about role playing. Oh my measly little drive But I think that feeling of like is this really what I'm dealing with yes like what was going on in that moment and Did this persist? I mean this is in January. Yes Uh, no, because my email to everybody made it very clear that this is unacceptable in the future and that this is how we process that.

But, in the meantime, right, we had had so much movement among consultants and they were helping each other out and covering territories as we were hiring new people and so there is just this level of What can I get away with. I think one of the things about this job is that you were hired as a consultant and then you just blew everybody out of the water.

And they promoted you like, pretty much right away. Yeah, within six months. And you're like, this is great, I know this, I can, I can make this happen. Inside out. Right, and then you, like, come up against the reality of, like, there are a lot of people just phoning it in. That people don't know how to function.

And, um, And just not having that same integrity and motivation, right? Because in this role, it's so much a self guided. And so you need to go hit the streets and drum up the business. It's sales. Um, and yeah, that doesn't come easy to people. No, and you were dealing with a bonus structure that wasn't actually incentivizing work.

No, it was, it was giving them a bonus if they do the bare minimum. Right. You know? Yeah, and you were dealing with the people being used to getting away with... Right. You know, and it being enough. Right. Holding them accountable or no knowing what to do. Right? Well, it was post covid, right? and so they actually weren't able to meet their goals because we didn't have the staff to Support putting drives on the calendar in this instance and so as long as they As long as there was anything else outside circumstances that prevented them from reaching their goals, then they would get a default bonus, a quite high, quite large one at that.

So they were used to this. I mean, we're talking. 14 months. We're talking in almost a year and a half of these free bonuses, these freebies. I don't have to work right, which incentivizes people to find a good excuse to not do right. And that's what we saw coming out of it, that even though we were staffed, then it was, well, I wasn't sure.

And, you know, all these excuses and Yeah, that were just frustrating because we had meetings upon meetings letting them know what's happening, letting them know change was coming, then change was coming, they still weren't moving. So yeah, it was very frustrating. And once you cleaned up the bonus structure.

Yes. I'm sure it's not popular. No. Did you find that the incentives were effective in helping people get motivating? Sometimes it's like People, there's like integrity, or under character, things that you're dealing with. Sometimes it's capacity, like a lack of creativity, or they don't even know what to do, a strategy, or how.

Yes, yes, which is baffling to me, because it's literally what I taught and trained on. And so there's no reason for you to say I don't know how, or it's not working. Because, again, I started out in this role, I know it does work. I know what it takes, and it's not a lot. It was not hard. Um... And so what I found was that was actually 50 50 that there were personality types that were like, Oh, things are changing.

I've got a change with it. And so they kicked into high gear and made those adjustments and two of them chose not to. And so then it became this. battle against, um, just getting you to do any work and having to have the conversations and write, like, how do I now have these conversations that says this is a performance job and you are not performing.

Like, I don't want to have to spell it out, but that's really probably the conversations that needed to happen right away. That instead I tried to like encourage and motivate and, you know, without success. Right. subtype of. Seven, which is a warmer. Yeah. Um, Seven, who is more oriented to like the health of the group and the system.

Right. And so intuitively you're feeling into and sensing those things and wanting it to be okay, for you to be okay. Right. And then you're also, I would say that you probably lead with your heart. Sure. In a style of two, a helper. Yes. Um, and so naturally you're going to look for ways that you can help them get there, make their lives easier.

Right. Set up the processes. Right. So you're like holding the vision of the heart of the person and the relationship with the person. Yes. But you're also holding the health of the group and the organization at the same time. Yes. That's a lot. And unfortunately what that meant was I was also holding their jobs because there was a lot that I was doing behind the scenes to try to help boost and, and not because I wanted to do their job for them, but because I was accountable to the numbers, to the higher up, to management, to director's meetings that I then had to account for.

So if they did not perform, then I had to answer for that. And so it was just easier for me to, you know, keep pushing and trying to get them to do it on their own, but also do the work in the background that's going to help boost. I think a lot of women do that. It's like more efficient for me to just do it myself.

Yes. When you're under pressure and you Um, and or once we have another person hired, or once, whatever, this is going to change. And a lot of people find themselves in that, like, over functioning, over working kind of a thing, and or micromanagement trap, both are traps, towards burnout. Yes, because while they're failing to do their job, it's not okay for me then to fail to do my job.

And I think in this position, I was really set up to fail in that aspect because I was being held accountable for their work.

[00:23:18] Free Resource: 10 Mistakes Managers Make

This would be a good time to mention that I created a free resource that outlines the 10 most common mistakes that managers make that contribute to burnout and poor performance. You can pick that up for free at michellekayanderson.com/10mistakes.

And in my response to her previous rant, I warned her about watching for signs of contempt that it might be coming from her. As a manager, this is a big red flag to be aware of, to make sure that you are helping things go in the right direction. In the show notes i'll include a link to a video that talks a little bit more about this from the Gottman Institute.

[00:23:57] Warning: Contempt

Michelle’s Marco Polo Video Clip: What you have to watch out for says is contempt because that is a really toxic communications when the four horsemen that got men. Explains as, like, failures of relationships, contempt, like, you're on the board of contempt the way you're talking about these people. And if any of that comes out, it probably comes out as condescension or criticism.

But if it comes as contempt, it's creating a whole nother problem that's under the surface um, unconsciously -resistance, rebellious, laziness, whatever. So just like check in with yourself, take a deep breath before you have these conversations, go for a walk, whatever you need to do, but like literally build time in.

To your day to do your job.

[00:24:35] Next Marco Polo message: SOPs

In the next clip, we were talking about processes and creating standard operating procedures or what she calls job aids. The intention being to help reduce meeting time and avoid needless mistakes, because she was getting increasingly resentful.

Jeanna’s Marco Polo Video Clip: Good idea of putting the policy in. I actually have a binder that I've made for the consultants, and my frustration is they're not even using it. They keep making these stupid errors that they should know better, and I'm doing crap. Nobody did for me as a consultant. I had to figure it out. Nobody made me little cheat sheets of when things were due, and, um, nobody checked over my calendar to make sure I did a good job.

Nobody checked in to make sure I was getting my bonuses. Nobody checked in when things were cancelled. Things were just cancelled. It wasn't like, oh, let's look what all the consultants are doing when things were due. I am so for them. So I think that that's what frustrates me when they're like lazy or don't want to do the job is like, do you have any idea what I'm doing for you?

Like I didn't get any of this stuff. Um, and you're going to miss me when I'm gone, but I can see how that mindset isn't helping me. Well, the other thing I can see is that me doing all this extra work isn't helping them. Like, what's the point? They're not referring to the job aids that I've made that tell them step by step how to do something.

And, um, I have a list of things I need to address in emails with them that already has three major things I have to deal with that I have talked with them over and over again. So yes, my brain is not shut off. It's super annoying. I'm constantly with this best practices and what should I have done and what pissed him off and, um, and this is a completely frustrating place to be.

Like, if 90 percent of my work has to go through. It's my only thing. Everything goes through. Unavailable to me and every time I go into this desk, I have Six to ten things that I need direction or approval on it's getting increasingly Frustrating because I'm in the space of waiting zones So you can definitely see the need to like expand like who I go to but I did that yesterday and got that's not good practice.

So I don't know I need to just let it go and I've tried so hard To do different things, and my brain just keeps coming back and replaying this stupid situation. Here's the thing. I've not been invited into the directors. I should be. I'm running a department, making all the marketing materials, making all the website decisions.

Do you think I've done one bit of work on this? No. So, I'm doing all the work, but I'm not including the directors meetings. Where probably the exposure that you're looking for, and if my boss says there needs to be a meeting with finance and whatever, all those people are in directors meetings. So, if I've only, which I'm not invited to, so if I've only been given direct access to Rachel, then it's the only space that I've been in, so I can see that need to expand, but if I'm not invited in, like, does that expand?

You know what I mean? That's the question. Okay, I'm sorry. I told you, I have not been able to get this out of my brain. It's annoying me. I'm trying to let it go, I try to put worship music on, and like shift focus, and it just is not happening. It's not happening. It's not happening. Really frustrating. Okay.

Jeanna: There's this thing that you experienced in this job that a lot of people experience that is like, there's a bottleneck. My boss is being a bottleneck. Yep. They hired me to do this thing, and now I can't do the thing because I feel like my hands are held behind my back, because I have to approve every decision.

Yes. And they're not available for that. Not available. But they're increasing the pressure on me to produce. Yes. And they're the reason I can't produce. Yes. So what do I do? Yes. And well, and not only that, but I can't do the other pieces of my job until this is approved. Right? So this is step one and they're ready for me to be at step six, but I can't get past step one to do two, three and four.

Yeah. Why do you think that happens so much? Like, do you think they can't see? In this role, I think my boss wanted control. She wants control over everything. And I really saw that come out in different, um, times. throughout the year. Um, I don't know why. I know in my personal world that when I tend to feel out of control, say at home with my Children, you know, with whatever I do tend to take, um, extra control or try to micromanage in work.

I had the pleasure of having an amazing boss that pointed that out to me when I was really young. I was maybe late twenties. Um, and it was so helpful to me because it was, she spoke truth in hard truth into my world. And then the next time that popped up or I got frustrated with people at work, I could then step back and see that what she had said was true.

And so for me, that was like a key moment that as a manager, I tried to do those with other people on receptively. It's hard. Yeah. Like when to give feedback and how to give feedback, how to make sure that someone is. In a frame of mind where they can hear and they want to hear and they're consenting to this process that they want to be mentored.

Or else it falls on deaf ears and creates a problem because they feel in control. So frustrating. Yeah. So in this case, it's really hard to say because my boss liked to be in control. And she wanted her hands on everything. But I think there was also another piece of it that she was shielding, which was accounting.

Who answers to nobody and, um, may or may not approve depending what mood she's in that day and has the ear of the CEO, you know, um, and so there really was a space because a lot of what I was doing needed funds or approval, um, where it was like, you have to like tiptoe and do this little dance. You do, you don't, you do, you don't, and to come in and strike right at the right moment to ask for what you need in order to get the approval that maybe she understood in a way that No one else did, and maybe she was shielding me from that, or maybe she was shielding herself from me having that direct access and knowing what it might cause.

Um, I'm really not sure, um, and especially when it came to, like, communications and marketing stuff, um, because a lot of that got turned down for no reason. You know, it's like, we need a community poster, for example, um, but she doesn't think those really work, so she's not approving it. Well, Okay, But she has no data.

But we have no other, like, we're not Advertising in any other ways right now, post covid, there's no funding to get anything printed or to have any type of ads. And so, like, we have to make a decision. And so when all the decisions are shut down, which is really what was happening at the end, every where I hit, I was running into a wall and getting a no.

Um, That was like, we can't do nothing and expect change. And after three months of that, I was like, I refuse to work in this any longer. I won't do it. It's a good example on the five dysfunctions of a team. Yes. That's a really good illustration. When there's no trust in the organization, these are the shenanigans that happen.

Yes. You've got people, smart people, employed to do a job that they've worked very hard on. Yes. And think that they have approval for because their boss says so. lead them to believe or because no one's told them otherwise or whatever. And when there are opportunities, when their project is at risk and they have an opportunity to step up and make it happen, their hand gets slapped and it's not safe.

That's the message. It's not safe for you to do that. It's not okay. And in fact, the whole project, seven months of work implodes, and then we wonder why we're not effective as a team. Yes. And we increase the sales goals. Yes. And then. You don't perform. Prop the whip. Because you can't. And in this case, not only did they increase sales goals without data, without a plan, without any more resources, any more people or whatever.

Yeah. We're just gonna like go faster. Right. And start screaming at people. They even then would like for each week that you missed a goal, it was gonna get heaped on to the next goal. Yes. Yes. So next week some people are falling farther and farther and farther behind. Yes. I could not believe it when you were describing this situation to me that this is what's happening.

No, I mean, in fact, we were a thousand, um, units behind in like month four. And each week, each week, each day was pretty much adding anywhere from 20 to 60 units on top of that. And so this number is exponentially growing. And the whole organization, the ceo is asking you What's our number this week? What are you going to do about it?

How are you falling behind, da, da, da? Every morning. And this whole energy of all the people pulling the data, talking about it, responding to the emails, her attention is on this. And the whole time, it's pulling you off the very activities. That could generate more units. Right. Right. Exactly. And, when I'm voicing exactly what I need to be able to get there, I'm being told, no, you don't need that.

Or, no, that doesn't work. Or, you know. Right. There's no space for creativity, so why bother? No space for creativity, so we're just gonna live in this reactive, preemptive world that our reactionary movements are gonna suddenly change, right? It's literally the definition of insanity. Yeah.

[00:34:01] Eureka! The monthly report template

Now let's focus on a win! In this clip, Jeanna talks about a "dynamic thing" that was a monthly status report format that I suggested. It was a game changer for her with the leadership team. And it positioned her as a key contributor within the organization. If you want to know more about that report, you can check out the free document I created for you in the show notes. Go to uplevelingwork.com/7 to get a copy of the template

Jeanna’s Marco Polo Video Clip: Okay, sister, you're not going to believe this. Hope you're not dreading my Marco Polos. Um, I had a really great day, a really great day, super productive, super positive. We had our meeting, um, which usually I dread going into, but today I was pumped. I was so productive and I worked through your dynamic thing and that just made me feel empowered, honestly.

Um, I reached out to the other two managers that are kind of at my level and said, Hey, how do you guys feel about meeting monthly? I was like these every other week we meet as a leadership meeting between collections and donor resources, but it is all collections. Like, there is nothing ever covered in donor resources, at all.

So, it's just not beneficial, kind of a waste of my time, but I think she wants us in the loop on things, and I kind of fought to get into that room. Now I'm regretting it. So, anyhow, they were both totally down for it. I sent them that monthly status update, and they were really impressed, and were like, yes.

So... So that felt good. And it just really felt like I was had my aces in the places, right? Like I felt empowered. I felt clear vision. I just felt like I've got my crap together. I'm a boss woman is what I felt like today. And, um, I got a lot of really positive feedback in the meeting. Well, positive participation in the meeting.

So that felt really good.

Michelle: Okay, I want to pull out the monthly status report because that felt like a game changer. Like it really changed the dynamic for you and how you felt and how you showed up at work.

Jeanna: this was, um, a PDF that you had, um, resourced me with that asked me a lot of questions about like what my goals are and how do I, what are my priorities this week, what projects are on the table. Um, it really encouraged me to be very specific with what work is being done and so I was able to, to name.

A project, for example, and who's working on what? And, um, this was a, um, a rolling document, shared document that we, um, worked on together. And so then each week when we met, it became this, what's the status update and keep things moving. And so for me, that was huge because in this time where I had This was the time where I had kind of decided I'm done, like I'm out the door, um, but it helped, like you were saying earlier where everything's in your head and it feels vague and it's very hard to pin down, this document allowed me to put everything on paper and to be able to see what I had done, like it was very rewarding in that I could see what I had done, but then also just as um, a space, Saver, because what I had noticed is so often we had done work. once, twice, three times, four times as people ask us for the information because we didn't remember it or whatever.

And so we went and go to go get the information again. And so this became as space saver where all the information was always put on this. So for example, with bids, if we're sourcing out something we wanna buy, One of the, the questions on there has said, you know, lessons I've learned and, um, I had learned that they want a minimum of three quotes and that as we present anything for funding to have those with them.

And that was a lesson learned the hard way. In this case, it served us really well because anytime we were, um, sourcing out something, we'd put our three bids in and we'd have them Right. there in the document, save it, whatever. And so when someone else said, Oh yeah, I want to bring this. Yes. Project back to the table.

I need you to go get beds. And it was like, I could pull up the document, copy and paste it in because we'd already done the work. Yeah. And so This really started to help streamline and, um, helps it, um, common practices and

Michelle: Right. This is one of the things that I do either when we have a culture of meetings that don't seem to be going anywhere where I feel like I'm saying the same things to either the same people or different people over and over or get asked the same types of things. It's like a department landing page, dashboard kind of what are our priorities is.

What are the key metrics? Where are we at? Status updates? Because as we were talking about at brunch, this is a skill you'll bring to your next job, too. Is like this idea, this discernment between what is a meeting really for? Because this is a common complaint a lot of people come with. It's like, we seem to have like sometimes two, three-hour meetings as a leadership team.

And I don't, they feel like we're getting anywhere, you know, kind of a thing. And it's like, that's because meetings are meant for discussions. Are we, what questions are driving our meetings as a way to think about a meeting? If you don't have a good question you want to resolve or get more information on or, you know, whatever, then you may not meet a meeting.

If it's a one-way information sharing, a memo, a pre-recorded video that's available and sent via email or whatever, where people can consume the information asynchronously on their own time when they can be fully present, because having to sit through a meeting where it doesn't, 60, to 90 percent of it doesn't apply to you is like mind numbing and a complete waste of time for people.

I just think we asynchronous information sharing that more and more companies should be using them to, in order to get stuff done.

Jeanna: Absolutely. Couldn't

Michelle: more.

Jeanna: Yeah.

—

Jeanna’s Marco Polo Video Clip: The rose-colored glasses are off. Like, I see red for what she is and so it just annoys me. I'm trying to reset the story that I tell myself instead of, the pressure is too intense and I shouldn't have to answer to all these people that are coming at me. And it's not even their job to tell me these things and ask for clarification because they want to know sooner than later.

Which is frustrating. It's like, just wait, I have two days, leave me I have to tell you that. Um, I need to reframe it as in I am leaving and everybody's trying to have whatever they need to be prepared and ready before I go. And that's my heart for them as well, so if that's my heart, I need to reframe the frustration and the indignation because that's why I really feel like every request is like, ugh, so annoying.

Yeah, so I'm re trying to reset and reframe. I mean, literally woke up just and all the conversations I have to have. I have an interview and a meeting today. Why I'm in this communication meeting when I'm out the door, I don't know.

Michelle: Okay, there's two things I want to talk about in this clip. One is the dread,

Jeanna: Mm hmm.

Michelle: which comes up again. There's a good clip here at the end.

Jeanna’s Marco Polo Video Clip: But the shoulds and the judgment is like oozing out of me. And it's ugly. It's ugly. I do not like it. I do not like it. So that's where I'm at trying to reset. Especially when you wake up just already dreading the day. It's just... Try to reset and get in a good space, so...

Michelle: Okay, so just kind of, I'm so judgy and I don't like what I see, but this is different. It feels like the energy of this clip, it's like more self aware and like you're allowing the judginess to be there instead of resisting it and beating yourself up too much. I mean, there's a little bit of self judgment there, but that's not the main vibe of this clip anymore.

And it felt like, Whoa, you've come a long way even in six months. Do you see that or when you watch us, what do you see?

Jeanna: I don't know. I was fed up. Yeah. I was fed up and I was done. And the fact what they were choosing to come in the last two days with was ridiculous. So yeah.

Michelle: You're just mainly tired.

Jeanna: Tired and like, I think in a way too it's like, look out. You know what I mean? Like these are not the questions to be asking at this time and you all are screwed.

Michelle: Yes, it was perspective, the value of perspective being two days out. And knowing this is not what we're doing. Okay, but there's this other thing that you do in other clips too. Yes. Which is this reframe, okay, reframe, reframe, reframe, I need to reframe. Like, it, what is going on in your brain when you're saying that?

What are you thinking and what's

Jeanna: Yeah, I'm thinking about everything you've taught me. I'm thinking about, is this serving me? I'm thinking about what is the story I'm telling myself, right? Like, because I'm living in the emotion. I'm living in the emotion and the frustration of it, which isn't helpful. And, um, through all the work that we've done, I know that I can look at this differently.

So it's like re reframe your thoughts. Right? What's really happening?

What really are you upset over? Um, is it valid or not? Cause we've done a lot of work around that, like okay, I get that you feel that way, but Like.

these are legit, valid things that you just have to deal with sometimes. Um, and other times it's, um, actually, you're right, you get to decide whether you're going to let this in or not.

A boundary needs to be set here,

Michelle: Um, and, um, you know,

Jeanna: um,

and a lot of times I think, you know, more often than not, that's with my, me, with myself, right?

What's my boundary or, right? My rut of thinking that doesn't serve me well. So, especially towards the end, I feel like I started saying a lot in this realm because it was so intense.

Um. But I really, we started to say that a lot towards the end, that story I'm telling myself is. Um, especially with the people who are coming in, right? Because if I want to leave well, and they're trying to get the information so that they can hit the ground running when I'm gone, then the frustration isn't valid.

Even though it is frustrating.

Michelle: It's not helpful.

Jeanna: right.

It's not helpful. Right.

Because all of this has to take place in order for me to leave well.

Michelle: I think you can get that perspective when you have the emotional intelligence of being able to see it from their perspective. There's compassion for that. They're starting to have to do the work themselves. They're starting to see how much is being left. And understanding the value that was there, that I hoped they would see all

Jeanna: Right. And I think in this case, it's with a specific person that, that often triggered me. Right.

And so we had done a lot of work around this person, um, because actually I think we're quite similar.

Michelle: That's the worst. It is.

Jeanna: It is.

the worst, especially when you're dealing with women and how they're treating you and What's stopping your job or impeding or getting in the way of, you know, and I even as I look back I feel like I was that for this person, but I don't even know why, you know, and um, yeah, so something to dig into I guess a little bit

Michelle: I wanted to look at some of those clips where you're reframing, where you're talking about reframing in real time. Basically, your frustration, your indignation in this case, the being so annoyed. Reframing is a defense mechanism of the seven. Did you know that? No. Um. It's

Jeanna: It's

Michelle: not a mechanism. It is a defense mechanism.

I am doing

Jeanna: you told me do.

Michelle: is defensive here. I want to distinguish the defense mechanism from what you're describing a little bit. But know that this actually is a superpower of the seven. In that a seven, when ego is running the show, when you're operating on, in an unconscious kind of automatic habitual space.

A seven will defend themselves by reframing a situation and looking at the silver lining. Well, at least this. Oh, yes. I'm good at that. And in the moment, it's like they can see that silver lining where it's like they don't even acknowledge the other part of it. Like it doesn't exist to them. It's, that's the power of the seven brain.

But what we're doing here from like a cognitive behavioral Standpoint that I think is the practice that you're trying to do here is to make your thinking visible to yourself and practice mental flexibility of what else could I be thinking here? And how are my thoughts driving my feelings in this Where do I have options? If I want to feel a different way, what would I need to be thinking? Yes,

Jeanna: that's huge. Yes, That's what I'm

Michelle: what you're doing. That's what I thought. And I just wanted to make that distinction because some people who have studied the Enneagram might come in and say, Oh, you're operating on automatic.

You're reframing your content. We're just watching you jump out of it and I'm like, no, this is different than that. That reframe is happening in the background without you even realizing. You just jump to like, where's the party? I don't like this. This is painful. I'm not doing this anymore. Or, you know, I've got, I've got better, better things to do here.

Um, but we are watching you in these videos sit in a level of discomfort.

Jeanna: Oh yes.

Michelle: That I'm not sure you would normally process in this way if we hadn't created a container for you to do that. Yeah.

Jeanna: And be in a space where I have to continue to show up. I think, you know, a lot of my past, um, work, I could just show up. Right. Even as I was training or running operations or, you know what I mean, managing people on different levels. Um, I could just show up. You know, you could shake off the day and not think about it again.

But this role, this position that I was in required me to continue to show up and to continue to hold the container for everyone else. And so, not only did I have to function within it consistently, but I had, I was navigating. Like, How do I work through these? Um, obstacles that keep showing up. And I think that there was a space that I was tired, I didn't know how to keep doing it, and yet this is my job.

And at this time we hadn't really started, you know, exploring it elsewhere. So it was like, how do I be okay? in it?

Michelle: Right. How do I be okay? I Yeah. I think a big part of coaching, I know I've probably said that like six times, but a big part of coaching is just not feeling alone the muck what is going on for you. Yeah, absolutely. Like having someone sit with you and be like, Yeah. Yeah. I see you.

This is intense. Yeah. It's not always going to feel this way. Let's discern the ways in which you are contributing to this. What is optional? What do we have agency or power or authority over? Yes. Where can we shift? But also allowing you to feel the way you feel is part of that process through to the other side.

Jeanna: Yes, and I would say that it started with, uh, how do I do this? Yeah. Help me out of this situation. Yeah. Right, because I do think that that's a natural starting point. And.

the more that we reflected and looked at the thought processes, the more that changed. Yeah.

[00:49:17] Dealing with Dread

Michelle: Going back to Jeanna's last series of clips that we played, I said I also wanted to talk about this idea of dread. And one of the things that we coached on a lot was this idea that dread is not so much an emotion as a thought process. It's not that it's not an emotion, it's just that it's a really big clue that when this emotion of dread shows up, that you've got a thought process, or a story or a tape running that is driving that particular emotion. And I shared that if she could listen for that story, she could start to shift to everything. And over a couple of months, we got to the point where dread was this early warning sign to help her see where she had agency to shift things.

And as she started to tell a different story or practice a mental flexibility about what this could mean or interpreting the circumstances in front of her, she started to feel more empowered instead of defeated. How cool is that?

Marco Polo Video Clip: The other thing that I really appreciated was dread. You told me that dread is not an emotion, it's a thought process. And that was huge for me. Huge for me. Um, because it helped me realize, uh, my role in it and how to change it. How to change it. That

[00:50:33] Reflecting on the coaching process

Shifting gears a little bit- our whole conversation got me thinking more broadly about coaching....

Michelle: Some of the clips reflected things back to me that I would do differently. And so as I finish up this advanced certification in feminist coaching, I can feel myself up leveling through the process

Jeanna: welcome. Thank you. It's so

Michelle: I can see more clearly that level of conditioning that women experience. So I can tell you that's normal. That's how a brain works. But there's this other thing because we were raised in a conservative Christian environment in the United States at this point in history It's just like the messages you receive in the water around what it means to be a good person or what success looks like and stuff like that.

It has me thinking much more deeply about that and trusting in a more inherently feminist rather than structured top down form of Like leadership. Yes. Both at work and in a coaching relationship. Because sometimes, often, all the time, actually, people come to me because they want an answer to a problem.

They want relief. So they come to a session and they're like, here's my problem, tell me what to do. Yes. And the capacity building as a coach that I'm really interested in doing is helping you build the capacity Yes.

Jeanna: Yes. Yes.

Michelle: And learn how to make decisions you're really happy with can live with. And that all comes from a place of like up leveling your self worth, your self esteem.

Jeanna: Yes. Which only comes from doing the work. So if there's nothing else that I'm saying, it's just trust the process. Because it really does work. Just having someone there helping you see things clearly. Or see your thought processes. Or see your emotions. You know, drag out your emotions. Or why does it really bother you.

Yes.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Just bringing that stuff to and the surface. And it does take time. That's the other thing. These clips go back to November of 2022. And so the coaching that happened is, you know, almost over a full year. And it, I just pulled these because it was like the most acute, like it just kept getting worse and worse.

Yeah, this is an

Jeanna: intense time. Trust me, we've been doing this work a lot longer

Michelle: longer Yeah, but it can be hard at first when you think about committing to a coaching relationship over a long, like what are we even going to talk about? I want relief right now. Like the reality is that we can set a strategy like with time management or the goal setting stuff that were kind of doing.

And you know what to do and then you go and practice it. And it works like the first week, but then week two, or even maybe it doesn't even work the first time you try it. Then week two, something comes up and what the reality is, once you have the strategy, the real work of coaching is in the like, all the things that come up after that fact that are the real reason preventing you from doing the thing you wanted to do.

It's not necessarily that the strategy is the magic easy button. Right. And that can be like, oh, frustrating, I think a

Jeanna: Yeah. Well, and I think for, for me too, there's a couple different things that you were wanting me to do or try, um, that I didn't want to do because it's It's, I didn't want to work that hard. And yet you provide the tools and everything. And upon implementing, while initially it did take a little bit.

of work, upon implementing, it just made everything else easier.

Because it, it allowed me to focus in to constantly have a goal. Um, in front of me at all times. Um, in my seven world, I like to live everywhere. Um, I mean, focusing and, um, organizing is not my strong suit. Um. But having those documents of things that you provided me with that, that was life changing, work changing.

I feel like that upleveled me instantly when I started following those because it allowed me to keep my work goals at the forefront. It allowed me to see the projects I was doing. And in this time when it was very intense and I felt so frustrated at work, it allowed me to see what I was accomplishing and to see what was happening because there's so much.

Ick and yuck and grossness around it all. I felt like I wasn't getting anything done. And so for that, those pieces that were provided along the way, where I initially, like, you know, resented or pushed back yes, um, pushed back against, um, were actually lifesavers in the end. And so, as I go into my new role and my new job, like, I'm bringing those tools with me because I know how well they work.

Michelle: little That's awesome.

Jeanna: I definitely think there's a piece of that, that, you know, people who want immediate answers or immediate relief, um, it may come in so many surprising different ways. Because you are a wealth of information and the amount of resources that you have and if you don't know this about Michelle, she is a fixer.

She wants to fix the problem for you and so she'll provide you with all these tools and then she'll go home and spend seven hours, you know, creating this tool that helps you learn how to do it. You know, and I do think part of that is sister world, you know, I have the privilege of that. But, um, but you are naturally like that

Michelle: do that all my clients really. Like the thing about and the reason I only take on a handful of clients at one time is because I'm all in. I'm fully invested in your corner. I'm your support person that you can rely on to that can help you be an objective third party to see this more clearly and To just gently nudge you back into like, oh, have you thought about this?

What is this? Can I offer this thought? Let me reflect back what you just said, you know Like is that what you really mean or what's going on do you like, you know this reason or that kind of thing? I think the other thing at play here is that What you said there, I didn't really want to work that hard, is kind of important to acknowledge, like, sometimes in a coaching relationship, you can feel like you're drinking from the fire hose.

Because there's, like, all this new stuff. The coach you went to, like, is trained in, like, for me, the Enneagram, or, you know, like, ThoughtWork, or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, or whatever. And you're, like, so thirsty for that thing, and you want to learn. And sometimes your brain is not in a space where you can absorb at all, and that's okay.

Yes. Like, it's... You have to trust that whatever you're gleaning right now is enough. Yes. And that over time, you'll be able to revisit and practice these a way. And that idea of consent is so important in, and different in a feminist coaching relationship. I want to point out because a lot of times in traditional coaching relationships, you will subject yourself to the process or the authority of the coach that you hire.

Right. And there's a very kind of command. I keep saying command and control, but it's just structured hierarchical is what it is. Relationship where I have information that I'm imparting to you, I know the right or best way. And the truth is, you're the authority on your own life.

Jeanna: Yeah.

Michelle: And you probably do know what's best for you, and you probably already have the resources you need to be successful.

And I really feel like my job as a coach is to help you rely on things you already know, and help you fill in the gaps that you've identified you need right now.

Jeanna: Yeah.

Michelle: And that's really unique and fun and different and can be hard and it can be uncomfortable because it's like just tell me what that is. Yes, absolutely.

Jeanna: And I would say like, just even the hierarchy, um, or the authoritative, right? It's what my generation tend to grew up in. Whether it's in our family, whether it's in our church space, whether it's in the workforce. It's all hierarchical. So, the way that you just said that, um, it's already within us.

It's like, I get that, but I didn't know that. Because I've never been given the autonomy. to pick that up and take

Michelle: right, because your get your hand gets slapped or you're you know you're told get back in line. Yes.

Jeanna: Yes. And I would even say it came out in my own manager style because I had just always got in line, right? Fall in line, soldier. Um, and modeled that because that's what I was taught. And so as a manager, trying to, you know, portray that in the way that I manage with this younger generation coming up behind me who really is Screw you. I'm not listening.

You want me to do it because you said so? Like, I don't think so. And it's like, this doesn't make sense to me. Like, you fall in line. What don't you get about that? And so I would say for a lot of the manager side of it, that was really helpful was me fighting that. Why won't they just get in line?

You know?

Michelle: right. It's on the, when you're on the other side, like when you commit to having consensual relationships, you know, kind of a thing with people, where there's adult to adult relationships at work, instead of adult to child or whatever, being on the other side of like, the person doesn't give you consent, but you really want them to do this specific thing.

That's like, requires you to be in a different headspace and have different skills for how to navigate

Jeanna: Right. and

for me, that looked like micromanaging, right? I became a huge micromanager, which didn't serve anybody, because it didn't help them to do their job more effectively. It, it, it coached them to come ask me for everything, which then I resented, you know.

Michelle: And created so much more work for you. So much more

Jeanna: work.

Michelle: Yeah. And then you're like resentful, frustrated. you, but they don't really have the capacity to, they're just passive consumers of the information of the process that you've created without understanding the why or the what Yes and how

Jeanna: I get here?

Michelle: Right.

Jeanna: Why can't they just fall in line?

And then you said adult to adult relationship, and I'm like, that's not my experience. My experience is adult to

Michelle: Right.

Jeanna: a generation of do it for me and I don't want to work that hard and you're not paying me enough.

Michelle: I think there is a group of people who are not willing to settle anymore. And, or are more attuned to their own intuitive, like this doesn't feel good, and they have a different perspective around I can get another job, I can, I deserve better, or whatever, that for those of us who were raised by boomers, you know, who were very like, you know, In line, this is what you do.

You work at the same company forever. You're not entitled

Jeanna: You Work your way up.

Michelle: Pleasure is like...

Jeanna: Pleasure is what

Michelle: do at home. What's that?

Jeanna: If

Michelle: If you're lucky. You know, then you go to, you go to church and you serve and that should be your pleasure. You know, in some ways, you know, in that kind of thing, it's like, it's just It's just, there's a lot of layers to it.

And I think in a lot of ways this generation gets blamed and in some ways it's not fair. But also, I think there's this really beautiful thing that they're reflecting back to us that's hard to see because we don't feel like we can claim it

Jeanna: Oh, I would. a million percent.

Yeah.

[01:01:43] Jeanna appreciates the opportunity to coach with me

Michelle: Before we wrap it up, I had to share one last message with you where Jeanna reflected back to me what she appreciated about coaching with me during this time.

Marco Polo Video Clip: That is coaching. It's like, where's the need? What do they need addressed right now? What's going to be the most helpful? Like, what do you do with me? You address the thing that's happening right now. And within that, you remind me what my thought patterns are. You remind me my motivations, desires. You remind me about who's around me.

And how they fit into it and what they're feeling and what motivates them. And then you talk about like, right, you become very objective to help me get out of the emotion, get out of whatever the problem is and start looking at it from different ways. And then they become very manageable or you hand me the tools that all of a sudden make things very manageable.

And even though I don't want to do the work, I'm thankful that I did because it's night and day difference. And so really that I feel like is your like most valuable Um, strength. Your most valuable ability is to be able to assess the problem and talk directly to it in the moment.

[01:02:48] Conclusion

Michelle: Well, hopefully this gives everyone a little bit of flavor of the reality of what long term coaching looks and feels like. And also... How you can go in six months time from like, I can't do this anymore, I don't see a way out having landed a dream job at a company that's hired you and paying you more than they've ever paid an entry person.

Jeanna: Yep.

Michelle: And, has people and resources in place for you to delegate to, who are competent and capable, are teaching you things, and who are trusting that you are going to do what you say you're going to do and you're going to figure this out.

Night and day work experiences. And just like knowing that those opportunities are out there.

Jeanna: They're out there. and also what you're doing is shaping you to be ready for them. Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. You have to be ready to meet the moment and be ready to show up in the way that you're going to be able to perform at a level you feel really good about.

I'm really proud of you, sis.

Jeanna: Aw, thank you. I couldn't have done it without you. Like legit, I could not have done it without you. I know it sounds sappy, you guys, but it's true. Like you all need a sister like Michelle.

Michelle: stay tuned for part two next week. This is where we're going to explore her recent career transition, how she opened up to a bigger dream, the highs and lows of the job application process, and what it's like in her new role now that she has the gift of perspective that comes from being in a different situation.

I'll see you next week.

—

Jeanna: [singing] Cause that's the way, uh huh, uh huh, I like it…

Michelle: Okay. I was just telling Jason I promised you fun and we're not, we gotta get to

Jeanna: Are you kidding? I'm having a blast. Where were we at? We're still talking about me.

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